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So those systems do exist in the sense that they can be specified for purchase or the transit agency can modify existing systems. It is true that you can't go out to the wheel-chair securement store and buy one off the shelf yet. I expect that will change.

Mr. MINETA. In your statement, Mr. Roffee, you mentioned wheel-chair lifts for over-the-road coaches which cost between $7,000 and $10,000, which displace no luggage space and take two seats in contrast to more seats-I believe four seats-and taking luggage space and costing something like up to $35,000.

Using what you have described to achieve accessibility on overthe-road coaches would significantly lessen the financial burden on the inter-city bus industry of eventual compliance with the ADA bill after six or seven years. Could you provide the Subcommittee with additional information about this lift? For example, is it being used by any transportation provider in the United States, and do you know what their experience has been thus far with the lift as far as its reliability and cost to maintain?

Mr. CANNON. Currently, the one you are referring to is, really, the one being used in Denver and has been mentioned earlier. There is limited experience with that device which is why we support the provision of the study done by the Office of Technology Assessment to really determine what that device is.

I have seen the device. It was here in Washington in 1984, a prototype of it, at the Convention Center at the APTA show. It is very similar to the kinds of lifts that are used on private vehicles in that it is extremely simple. It is much simpler than the complicated so-called passive lifts used on urban buses, so it ought to be easy to maintain.

My lift on my van, which I just recently had to replace, I bought back in 1976. It was No. 19 on the production line. Except for some modifications and maintenance and one motor replaced, it has been extremely serviceable. Those kinds of things are very easy to maintain and relatively inexpensive.

Because this lift, essentially, operates on the outside of the vehicle, it does not take up a luggage bay and, therefore, it does not restrict the carrying of baggage express or package express on which, I believe, Greyhound depends a great deal for their income.

Mr. MINETA. Are you going to be monitoring the experience there in Denver with regard to this Hubmatic lift?

Mr. CANNON. We are attempting to collect as much information as we can. According to the Senate version of the ADA, we would be involved, we would expect, with the study that the Office of Technology Assessment would do, and intend to keep a close watch on that.

Mr. MINETA. So you will be incorporating something of that Denver experience, so to speak, in your OTĂ report as provided under the ADA.

Mr. CANNON. That is correct.
Mr. MINETA. Very well. Mr. Shuster?
Mr. SHUSTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

With regard to the Hubmatic lift, staff tells me that it is a prototype only, and they were installed on buses which were not typical over-the-road coaches, and that the cost of the lift, itself, was accompanied with an additional $11,000 charge to make the bus compatible with the lift.

Is that a fair characterization of the situation as you understand it?

Mr. CANNON. My understanding is part of that additional cost had to do with a change order which would not, necessarily, incur on an initial purchase from another manufacturer, a new manufacturer, today. That is one of the uncertainties, however, that we hope to study. It is very difficult to nail down what is the real cost of that device versus what was caused by the change order which always adds additional costs that are not really attributable to the equipment. Mr. SHUSTER. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MINETA. Mr. Roffee, Mr. Cannon and Mr. Raggio, thank you very much for being here. I look forward to our working as we go down this path. Again, thank you very much.

(Mr. Roffee's prepared statement follows:)

STATEMENT OF LARRY ROFFEE, EXECUTIVE

DIRECTOR, ARCHITECTURAL AND
TRANSPORTATION BARRIERS COMPLIANCE
BOARD

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to be here today on behalf of the

Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board to testify on the

Americans With Disabilities Act. The Architectural and Transportation Barriers

Compliance Board, or the Access Board as we are more commonly known,

was established by Congress 16 years ago to ensure that buildings which

are designed, constructed, altered or leased with Federal funds are readily

accessible to, and usable by, persons with disabilities.

The Access Board has been responsible for developing and refining,

through active research programs, the Minimum Guidelines and

Requirements for Accessible Design (MGRAD). These guidelines represent

the state-of-the-art in creating an environment usable by all people and serve

as the model for the Uniform Federal Accessibility Standards (UFAS). Those

standards are used to implement the Architectural Barriers Act of 1968 and

are referenced in regulations used to implement Section 504 of the

Rehabilitation Act of 1973 which apply to post offices, Government buildings,

and Federally financed housing and transit facilities across the country.

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The Access Board has studied the many and various architectural,

transportation, communication, and attitudinal barriers which limit the full

participation of disabled citizens in our society and has published a series of

technical papers and staff reports on eliminating these barriers. For example,

Lifts and Wheelchair Securement provides guidance on providing access to

buses and paratransit vehicles. Aircraft Stowage Procedures and Battery

Powered Wheelchairs explains how to stow power wheelchairs on aircraft in

accord with hazardous materials regulations. Transit Facility Design for

Persons with Visual Impairments gives guidance to transit facility designers

and operators on making transit systems usably by persons with visual

impairments. Through these and other activities, the Access Board has

become a national resource and center of expertise on accessibility for

persons with disabilities.

The Access Board, along with the President and the rest of the

Administration, wholeheartedly support the broad gcals of the Americans With

Disabilities Act. This legislation would extend basic, civil rights guarantees to

over 36 million Americans with disabilities and eliminate discriminatory

barriers in public accommodations, places of employment, public

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transportation, and telecommunications. The legislation would significantly

promote independence, freedom of choice, and productive involvement in the

social and economic mainstream for our nation's disabled citizens.

Through conducting public forums around the country and sponsoring

research projects and studies, the Access Board has gathered extensive

information about the extent and effects of discriminatory barriers experienced

by persons with disabilities in public accommodations and public

transportation. The Access Board has carefully analyzed the provisions of

the Americans With Disabilities Act which have passed the Senate and

believes that they provide a comprehensive solution to removing these

barriers.

In the area of public transportation, the Americans With Disabilities Act

would require that all new buses, rail vehicles, and other fixed route vehicles

which are purchased 30 days after the enactment of the Act be readily

accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals

who use wheelchairs. Because the average life of a bus is 12 years,

accessible bus transportation would be available to disabled citizens in cities

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