and certainly important to the handicapped community, I think the first question that concerns me, Mr. Currey, there are some that are saying-well, it is just another couple of bucks on a ticket, and all you have to do is add a couple dollars more to a ticket and that solves the problem of the kinds of costs we are talking about because we are talking about real costs, and none of us dispute that.

What happens to the nature of the service you provide and the type of person you are providing it to if, in fact, that is the end result of this bill, just another couple of dollars on the average bus ticket? Does that dramatically change the nature of the industry as we know it and the service the industry can provide?

Mr. CURREY. Sir, our service and the use of our service is incredibly price sensitive. The inter-city bus industry, or let me just say Greyhound and Trailways, that is one passenger traveling one mile, the index of real volume in the industry lost real volume every year for 10 years in a row. Those 10 years were interrupted by our purchase of Greyhound Lines and subsequent purchase of some of the Trailways, Inc. assets in July of 1987.

We did two very direct things that have caused usage of intercity buses to go back, to come back. The first thing we did was we lowered fares 20 percent. The second thing we did is exert every conceivable effort to make terminals clean, safe places. I suppose the third thing we did was put in a lot of technology so we could answer the telephone on time.

But this industry had ratcheted down as a result of airline deregulation and discount air fares and use of automobiles for intercity travel every year for 10 years, and fares were hiked every year for 10 years in an effort to retain the profitability. We dropped fares, ridership went up.

Further, we have discovered that we can't price generally in our business, that we have to price specifically from point to point, and, for instance, just recently, over the past three weeks, we have seen a diminution in short haul travel. I can tell you exactly why, because we tried to get 50 cents, 75 cents more on a $10 to $12 ticket, and we are reversing those price moves.

So every study we have done, backed up by actual marketplace action, tells us that inter-city bus travel is incredibly price sensitive. Now that also ties to the demographics, because let's look at who our passengers are. They are predominantly passengers whose travel needs are time and sensitive, price needs are very sensitive. Fifty percent of them are people who have incomes below $15,000 a year, many of them rural based, so while another 10 or 15 cents or another 50 cents or $1 on an item might not mean anything to you or to me, it means a great deal to them.

Furthermore, I interview our customers every time I ride the bus, and I try to ride the bus extensively once a quarter, once every three months, and they always mention price as one of the two top items as to why they are riding the bus, and they also are aware of our price changes, no matter how modest, so we are an incredibly price sensitive business, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. Thank you very much.

Mr. Dipert.

Mr. DIPERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. Assuming that this bill's provisions for full accessibility do not drive private bus companies out of business, every bus company does the kind of investment that it would have to make to comply with this proposed legislation; what do you anticipate would be the result on travel and tourism as it relates to price increases that would likely have to result to accommodate the provisions of this legislation? Have you looked at that, estimated, made any consideration?

Mr. DIPERT. Our business is basically, in fact about 80-90 percent of our business is done with retired Americans who are on limited income. Although they have much time available to them, they have limited income, and the increased cost, as I spoke to earlier, the increased cost on the tour operators where only a third of our members in the National Tour Association own their own bus, the others, the price would be passed on to them and eventually to the

customer.

And although no hard data has-we don't have any hard data that we have come up with since this bill has been introduced-it is the feeling of our operators that the cost that would have to be passed, on compared with the cost of cheaper air fares, cheaper destinations that are available through air travel and ground arrangements, would make it impossible for some of our members who are in small rural areas, small communities to package tours for people in those areas that would like to see part of America, and most of our operators do bus tours to two, three days away to other areas that their customers are wanting to visit in the U.S.

Mr. CRAIG. The reason I asked that question, Mr. Chairman, one of the new economies of my State is the growth of the bus tour industry. We see a good many tours coming through rural Idaho today because a good many urban people are wanting to visit Rural America and see if Rural America is still out there, I suspect, along with the beauty that is involved there, and there is, you know, if there is an additional cost at a time when this industry apparently is beginning to flourish and seek new avenues of providing for their customer, I think it would be tremendously damaging to a broad economy of this country, not to a narrow economy.

Mr. Chairman, one last question. I would like to ask this of you, Mr. Busskohl. Is the demand for 100 percent fleet accessibility the only way to meet the needs of handicapped riders? Because we are gaining and appreciating the sensitivity of the handicapped industry that that seems to be the argument today, almost as if they were not currently being served.

Mr. BUSSKOHL. No, that is not correct. For example, we do operate also two schedules in the Midwest, mostly in Nebraska, and any time that we have ever been asked to serve a handicapped person, we have. So we do have the ability to serve handicapped persons that can be separated from their chair. If somebody has a chair as part of their life support system, we cannot do that, but that is in place today, and there are other programs on a national basis that are in place today, and they are being served.

I also believe that given a little more time and with the study, we can come up with other means to serve other than fully equipped lifts.

Mr. CRAIG. In other words, only in unique situations are you having to turn away the handicapped person?

Mr. BUSSKOHL. That is correct.

Mr. CRAIG. Thank you all. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. MINETA. Thank you, Mr. Craig. Mr. Parker.

Mr. PARKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To my colleague from Idaho; when I left the house this morning, Rural America was still there.

Mr. CRAIG. Thank you.

Mr. PARKER. In the testimony that we have gotten from this panel, it is interesting that four of you gave testimony that was basically reactive in nature, basically a study of the case that if the bill goes through as proposed, it will destroy your industry or curtail services that can be provided.

Now, being reactive in nature is not something that we as Members of Congress, that we can blame you with because we tend to be very reactive in everything that we do also. The one statement that has been given that is proactive in nature comes from Mr. Currey. Now that is interesting in that everything that he has said basically says there is a problem. And his company is addressing that problem, I think in a realistic fashion.

I would like to know what your comments are as far as the fivepoint plan that Greyhound has come up with, because I think there is a problem, you know. There is a problem out there as far as getting people where they want to go, total access. There is some type of a problem. If there is not a problem, then the entire program that Mr. Currey is talking about, he is being reactive. It is a situation where he is reacting to something that doesn't need to be addressed.

I would like to have your comments as far as the program that is being initiated by Greyhound. Mr. Dipert.

Mr. DIPERT. Mr. Parker, my company can't come up with $100,000 to make a donation to disabled Americans. It would bankrupt my company. I only have 14 buses. So where Greyhound can come up with, because of their size, can put in 800 lines and do many very interesting, creative things, and they are definitely a leader in the industry, leader creatively, leader in the marketing, and very helpful to the rest of the bus inter-city industry. It is hard to conceive there are a lot of "Mom and Pop" small businesses out there that are running two, three, four buses as their livelihood, and it is very hard for them to come up with creative resources to do something in their community.

That is not to say that our members aren't involved in the community and in the human needs of their community. I serve on the Board of Directors for the Salvation Army, I am very active in the human needs in our community. It is very important to me, and what the disabled are asking for, I as an individual am very sympathetic to it, and will do everything in my power in my little area of the world to help accomplish.

But I hope the committee doesn't forget that there are a lot of small businesses out there struggling for their livelihood, and although this may not seem like a big thing in the big picture, in a lot of small areas, it would, for them to get their equipment ready,

it would impact them so much that they would have to go out of business.

Mr. HENRY. Yes. I would just like to say one or two things about that. All companies are different and have different methods of operation. As Mr. Currey said, his 200 terminals, he can do those kind of things. We operate a much smaller company. It is a company over 80 years old. I guess you might say we have operated on almost a home-spun philosophy more so than a highly categorized business. We never realized. It was brought to our attention that we had a problem taking care of the handicapped. Maybe it is our fault or maybe it wasn't brought to our attention. We have been carrying the handicapped ever since we started the interstate bus business. The blind are handicapped. We have reduced rates.

We have had people call us, call our terminals, we have met the people at the terminal, we have carried people onto the bus, drivers have called ahead and we have called ahead, we have two-way radios to make sure that a supervisor person was at the other end of the line to help. We are trying to do actively what we can do with what we have, so I think we have been trying to meet the needs, and apparently we have not had someone call us and say we aren't. We are trying to do the best we can with what we have.

As we have seen the problem from a small company, we have faced that problem and tried to help those people that needed help. There are two different styles of operation.

Mr. PICKNELLY. Mr. Parker, my company, Peter Pan, based in Massachusetts, is probably unique to the Massachusetts hologram that leases buses to companies primarily for service within the Commonwealth. We have 146 buses, of which now seven are wheelchair accessible, which is about five percent.

Clearly those buses are being under-utilized at the present time. Maybe the answer is that some percentage of buses should be wheelchair accessible. One of the things I think we are suggesting is that the entire matter be studied. Maybe the results of the study would show that perhaps a certain percentage should be wheelchair accessible. I think that is the reason for the study, sir.

Mr. BUSSKOHL. I don't know whether I can give you a direct answer, but on our schedules, specifically a run between Omaha, Nebraska and Rapid City, South Dakota; in a year's time we operate 300 days out of the year whether it is snowing or not, and we have had approximately 12 requests to handle people that were handicapped, and not a one of those people has been turned down, not a one of those people was not able to take that trip unless, as I stated before, they could not be separated from the chair.

So, once again, this has been going on ever since we have been in business, which is 62 years, and we believe that the handicapped community has been served, and, once again, if there is a perceived need, I believe with a little time and a little study there can be even better methods designed to do this.

If you want to get into just for a minute the tour end of the program, there are tours designed specifically for handicapped. I know of one in Owatonna, Minnesota, and if we have requests of the people, say we have to have handicapped accessible throughout the whole tour, we can recommend that, and I am sure that there is at least one other operator that I know of in the State of Washington.

So even that kind of a statistic, I think, might tell you a little bit about the real requirements of the handicapped when they have only got two that I know of. There may be several others, but there aren't very many that specifically are designed for the handicapped.

Mr. PARKER. Thank you very much.

Mr. Currey, I propose that one of the reasons you are one of the leaders in your industry is because you do come up with innovative ideas like you are doing, and I commend you for that. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MINETA. Thank you, Mr. Parker. Mr. Duncan.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Gentlemen, last week I made the comment that I thought that this legislation might affect small businesses more than the very large businesses, and Mr. Guard was testifying at that time, and he seemed to indicate that he didn't think that was so, that he thought even very small bus companies could comply with this ADA Act.

I take it from your testimony that most of you would question that. I think that much of what we do here in Washington, it ends up helping big business, and we are running small business out of existence at an alarming rate in this country, and I am concerned about that. In the "National Journal" just a few days ago—that is a very nonpartisan magazine-they have an article about this act, and they say, the column says it sounds great, but what does it mean, and it says, "Congress is writing bills that few people, least of all its Members, understand or can explain.

"The latest example is a 1989 Americans With Disabilities Act which the Senate passed by a 76-8 vote on September 7th and which the House is expected to approve before law-makers complete business this year. The bill is well intended, addresses a legitimate and serious national problem and sets goals with which few people could disagree. But its broad prescriptions are so ambiguous and potentially over-reaching that Federal Judges quite likely will struggle for years to define what the law means and how to enforce it.'

Do you gentlemen think there has been enough study or enough investigation on this law? Mr. Henry.

Mr. HENRY. No, I do not, and that is one reason, as we said, we welcome a study, but what we don't welcome is a study that has a foregone conclusion. Yes, I would like to have someone help us find ways to better serve those who apparently we are not serving as well as we could. But as the small business, and I think I represent small business, the costs to us, the capital costs would be devastating to us.

Mr. DUNCAN. Mr. Currey made I think one of the finest witnesses I have ever heard before one of these committees. But, Mr. Currey, you seemed to think, of course, from your maps and so forth, that this would have a tremendously harmful effect to the Greyhound Company, is that correct?

Mr. CURREY. Yes, sir, Mr. Duncan, it will. It will indeed, but we see the Greyhound Company with three constituents, and we believe it harms each of the three constituents: our customers, our employees, and our capital providers. But in our customer list I