ing the petition referred to a committee of the house to examine into its allegations. There were at present two budgets in arrear, and the last accounts of the India company, to which the house could resort for information, shewed the affairs of the company to be in a ruinous state. By these accounts it appeared, that there was an excess of above two millions in the company's foreign expenditure over their revenue, and a loss of 2,200,000l. in their trade at home. Under these circumstances, and whilst the company had a debt of seventeen millions at home, payable at the option of the holders, he did not think that parliament would do right to pass this bill without enquiring what means the company had of discharging, as well their former debt, as this new incumbrance. He should therefore, notwithstanding the prospect held out by the hon. director opposite, of a permament peace, and consequent prosperity of the affairs of the company, move as an amendment, that the bill be read a second time on this day fortnight.

Mr. Grant replied, that though the hon. member might be actuated by a desire to promote the public interests, he took the wrong course in his speech, for his arguments were founded in ignorance, not in his knowledge of the subject. The sole and simple reason for bringing forward the bill before the India accounts could be brought under the consideration of the house was, that if that course had not been taken, the bill could not be passed this session. The hon. member was aware how difficult it was to prepare the India accounts, so as that they could be presented in a form to be intelligible to the members of that house. He was sorry to find an hon. gent. who

had filled the situation lately held by that hon, member, so ignorant of the affairs of the company as te make the assertions he had done. It was true that by the accounts on the table there appeared a deficit at home of above 2,200,000l. which the hon. member had stated to be the amount of the company's loss on their trade, whereas it had arisen from the quantity of stores and other articles which were necessarily sent out in consequence of the situation in which the company's settlements were placed. By the plan adopted in 1802 for the liquidation of the company's debt, it had been recommended to send out from Europe considerable quantities of bullion, in order to avoid the necessity of making loans on improvident terms in India. This had been done in 1803, 4, and 5; but the sums and bullion so sent had been applied to the purposes of the wars that then existed, so that no reduction of the debt had taken place. So also, when the system in India had been changed by marquis Cornwallis, considerable sums had been sent out, not for commercial purposes, but for the general expenditure of the presidencies in India. Under those circumstances, the company, though by law authorized to increase their funded stock had applied to Parliament for authority to issue bonds, and this was a much better course for the public, because, if the stock of the company should not be worth any thing, it would be irretrievable to the holders, whereas the bonds might or might not be taken at the option of the individuals who might speculate in such securities. What he had said with respect to the prospect of peace, was founded on the report made by the governor-general, and

he

he was persuaded that the jealousies of the native powers had been extinguished by the conciliating disposition manifested towards them by our government. On all these grounds, he should vote that the bill be now read a second time. Lord Folkestone defended the statement of his hon. friend, as to the situation of the East-India company's affairs, and contended for the propriety of deferring the discussion, till the papers now printing should be in the hands of the members. Fe protested against the implied guarantees that would be given to the security of the bonds, without sufficient investigation of the state of the company's affairs. To issue the bonds without such a guarantee, would be to delude the public.

Lord Howick insisted upon the propriety of waiting till the documents now printing should be before the house. The importance and extent of the measure to be proposed to-morrow, for the defence of the country, would involve details, which would, in all probability, keep parliament sitting for so long a time, as to allow full opportunity to pass this measure after ample discussion. The state of the East-India company was such, that if the house could not in this cession, go into a particular investigation of the company's affairs, it ought at least to pledge itself by a resolution to do so in the next. He expatiated on the declining state of the company's investments and sales; on the increased dangers menancing our Indian possessions from the increased power of Buonaparte, whose hostile designs against our Indian empire were well known. He insisted also on the instability of the peace with the native powers

in India. He was of opinion, that those who should advance money on the credit of these bonds would have a claim upon the public, if the company should prove unable to discharge them. [Certainly not, said Mr. Grant,] That was, in his opinion, at least doubtful. If the company could raise the money on its own credit, why did it come to parliament ? If the sanction of parliament was necessary, it was in order to give the bonds

credit, which implied a sanction, amounting virtually to a guarantee.

Mr. R. Dundas defended the raising of money upon bonds, in preference to the augmentation of the company's capital, which the company was already by law entitled to make. With respect to the urgency of passing the bill soon, he believed it was strictly a private bill, and must of course be reported this day se'nnight, or fall to the ground. This, however, the house might dispense with. With respect to the state of the company's affairs, though expensive wars had brought on heavy charges, the Indian empire was as little ruined by those heavy charges, as this country was by the heavy wars it had to sustain in Europe. Neither did the failure of commercial speculations in one or two years imply absolute ruin. The West-India merchants also were under difficulties: but nobody thought of saying they were in danger of being ruined. He denied that the passing of this bill amounted to a guarantee on the part of parliament. It might as well be argued, that parliament would be guarantee to the increase of the capital which the company had already power to make by act of parliament.

Dr.

Doctor Lawrence, as a member of parliament, ignorant on this subject, and entitled to information, contended, that no farther proceedings should be had on this measure, without full inspection of such documents as could be had. There would be abundant time for this. It was generally understood that the session could not be terminated in less than five weeks.

com

The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it strange that, as this measure had been agreed to by the late board of control, it should now be opposed by the secretary to that board (Mr. Creevey.) He denied that parliament, in passing the bill, guaranteed the bonds. The present high price of the company's stock, 180 per cent. was a sufficient proof of the pany's credit, and the stability of its funds, without the aid of parliament. The present discussion was, at least, a sufficient notice that parliament gave no sanction. The parliament was never supposed to sanction the West India dock company, or any other private speculating company, when an act was passed, enabling such company to increase its capital. It was allowed on all hands, that the company wanted relief, and this was the best mode of granting that relief.

Sir A. Wellesley supported the ́measure, and maintained the propriety of proceeding upon it without delay. The company's investments had been fully attended to. The difficulties arose from the state of the continental market, goods to the amount of 7,000,000l. being on hand. The territorial revenue in India, afforded a surplus of 1,000,000l. above the expenditure.

The late wars had rendered our empire more secure against any attempt from the native powers.

Lord Morpeth recommended a minute investigation of the company's affairs, with a view to a complete settlement. Temporary arrangements were indeterminate and unsatisfactory.

Mr. Lamb thought parliament bound to investigate the solvency of the parties to whom it granted power to raise money, and of course responsible in the event of these parties proving insolvent. The question being put, a division took place,

For reading the bill a 2d time now, 35 Against it

10

The bill was accordingly read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday.

Thursday, July 23.

Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the East India Bonds Bill. On the question that the amendments of the committee be read a second time,

Mr. Peter Moore entered into a detailed statement of the affairs of the East India company, in order to shew that its debts and embarrassments were the consequence of measures which had been forced upon the company, by the government and board of control, for the effects of which, the company ought not to be responsible. It was in consequence of such measures, that the wars which had taken place in India, had embarrassed the company, that the participation, on the part of the public, had taken place but once, and contended, therefore, that the public had a right not only to make good to the proprietors their stock,

to the amount of 12 millions, but also to discharge the whole of the floating debts of the company.

Mr. Dundas replied, that that was not the time for entering into a detailed examination of the India accounts. It was a most extraordinary doctrine to maintain, that the expense of wars, undertaken for the defence of the company's territories, should be defrayed by the public. As to what had been said respecting the participation on the part of the public,he should only answer, by referring the hon. gentleman to the act, in which there was an express exception of times of war.

Lord Folkestone declared it to be his intention to resist the further progress of this bill, at least until the India accounts should be before the house, and the ground of his opposition was, that by the papers upon the table, the affairs of the company appeared to be in a dilapidated state.

Mr. W. Smith could not agree in the position of his hon. friend, that the public should be responsible for the sums to be borrowed under this bill, or for any other of the East India company's debts; and unless it should be understood from an explicit protest, a resolution of that house, that, by sanctioning this measure, it did not make the public a guarantee for the debts to be incurred under it by the India company, he could not consent to the measure.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer was surprised that any doubts could be entertained upon this subject, after the manner in which it had been discussed on a former night. Undoubtedly, by passing this bill, that house was no more bound to guarantee the debts contracted pursuant to its provisions, than it

was bound to guarantee the debts of any private company or corporation, authorized by act of Parliament to raise money for the purposes of its institution. The money, in this instance, was to be raised on the sole responsibility of the company, to which alone, and not to the public, the lender was to look for the repayment of the sums he advanced.

Mr. Creevey should support the opposition of his noble friend to the further progress of the measure, unless he should be given to understand that the third reading would not be pressed before the end of next week, by which time he understood the India papers would be before the house.

Mr. Grant argued against the supposition that the public guaranteed these bonds, in allowing them to be issued. He contended, that the exclusive charter of the East India company was the only means of preserving India to this country. The contingencies on which a participation in the company's profits had been promised to the public, had been retarded and prevented by a state of war. They had been calculated to accrue upon a prospect of peace.

Doctor Lawrence argued, that the fear of the eventual liability of parliament arose from the want of sufficient proofs of the validity of the company's security, which parliament was bound to ascertain, before it should give its sanction to the issue of the bonds. After some further explanation, the amendments were agreed to.

Mr. Whitbread insisted that time should be allowed to make enquiry into the solvency of the company before any farther proceedings on the bill.

Mr. Dundas had no objection to

On the motion for the third reading of the bill,

Mr. Creevey said, when he formerly expressed a wish that the further progress in this bill should be postponed, he did so because the necessary accounts were not then all on the table. They had since been produced, and they were by no means calculated to satisfy him, that the company had any prospect of being able to produce a revenue which should at any time greatly exceed their expenditure, or such as would enable them to provide for the payment ese bonds. It appeared to that there was even on the nts, 1805-6, a deficiency of ,000l. He had heard an able member, a director of mpany, (Mr. Grant) talk of idue of nearly 1,000,000l. w, indeed, on looking into ccounts, a balance in one of 600,000l. but in this view case, the interests of the lue by the company were not ed for. Calculating on this e other expenses, there was ciency for the year 1805-6, arly two millions, and for eceding year of 1,600,000l. as, therefore, more than onfirmed in the opinion, that was an impossibility in supthat the company could ever a net surplus revenue, or I ever be able to provide for debts abroad and at home.

As, however, it was admitted by the hon. director, and by the chancellor of the exchequer, that no claim could lie against the public on account of the bonds now to be issued, or any other debts of the company; and as it was understood that an enquiry into the state of the company's affairs was to take place early in the next session, if the East India company could borrow money in the way proposed; he should not object to it.

Mr. R. Dundas contended, that by properly analysing the accounts on the table, the hon. member would have found that the accounts for 1805-6, instead of a deficiency, produced a surplus of 800,000l. and by a necessary attention to the expenditure, he had no doubt it would produce such a surplus as would be sufficient for a speedy liquidation of their debts.

Lord Folkestone declared, from all the attention he had been able to pay to the subject, that the deduction drawn by his hon. friend, (Mr. Creevey) not that of the hon. gentleman opposite, was correct.

General Tarleton said, he had it in charge from his constituents to oppose the bill; and, particularly, to oppose the renewal of the company's exclusive charter; which, when it came before the house, he should feel it his duty to do.

Mr. Whitbread thought that the weight of testimony was at present against the company. If, however, an honourable member of the board of control, (Mr. Johnstone) whom he now saw in his place, would join his testimony to that of the gentleman at the head of the board, as to the state of the company's affairs, and the probability of a favourable issue, he should be satisfied; at least it would go