Mr. CAREY. Is that a full answer, sir? Mr. KNUTSON. Wel, it is academic. It is not very illuminating, but it is academic. Mr. CAREY. I have been making a living at it for some years. The scope of the agreements is strictly limited in the act and is subject to reasonable congressional scrutiny and review. Where does the Congress review any of these trade agreements? Mr. CAREY. I think you do every 3 years when this act is renewed. Mr. KNUTSON. Oh, please don't quibble. Mr. CAREY. No; I am not intending to quibble. Mr. KNUTSON. Í am going to cut out the word "act." The scope of the agreements is strictly limited The scope of the agreements; get that? Mr. KNUTSON. Now, maybe your stenographer didn't hear you when you dictated it, but I am assuming she did. The scope of the agreements is strictly limited reasonable congressional scruitiny and review. * and is subject to Where do we scrutinize, have an opportunity to scrutinize and review, before they go into effect? Mr. CAREY. Oh, you don't before they go into effect, but you do after; you do the application of the act after it has been in existence. Mr. KNUTSON. No, no, no. We only are called upon to act every 3 years when they ask to have it renewed. Mr. CAREY. That is correct. Mr. KNUTSON. How much have we had to say about the 30 agreements that have been entered into? Mr. CAREY. As they were entered into? Mr. KNUTSON. Before they were entered into. Mr. CAREY. Nothing so far as I know. Mr. KNUTSON. I know of only one instance where there was anything done by a Member of this body that had any effect, and that had to do with feathered birds, and they refrained from cutting the rate on that particular bird because it happened to be a very important activity in that particular Member's district. I will admit to that extent you were right, but I am asking you to elaborate on that statement: Where are we consulted before the treaties have been ratified? Mr. CAREY. My understanding is that you are not consulted. You gave Mr. KNUTSON (interposing). Well, why didn't you say so on page 9, then? Mr. CAREY. That is what it does say. Mr. KNUTSON. It doesn't. Show me where you say it. Mr. CAREY. You just read it. Mr. KNUTSON. Well, show me. Mr. CAREY. I am only going to reread what you have already read, sir. Mr. KNUTSON. I don't want to be hard on you because I understand you are for the Ruml plan. Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir. [Laughter.] I don't understand why everybody else wasn't. Mr. KNUTSON. And that washes some of your sins away. Now will you please sir. Mr. CAREY (interposing). I will be pure white by and by with you, Mr. KNUTSON. On what page? Mr. CAREY. On page 9. What paragraph is that? Mr. KNUTSON. That is No. 4 down at the bottom of the page. Mr. KNUTSON. Now, cut out the word "act" there because it doesn't mean anything and because you are talking about agreements, “the scope of the agreements." Now talk about the scope of the agreements, and confine yourself to the scope of the agreements. Mr. CAREY. May I carry your eye up the page to item (a) under 3, and will you read that with me, sir? Mr. KNUTSON. On what page? Mr. CAREY. Same page, 9: The renewal of the act every 3 years permits a review of trade-agreement policy and congressional control in terms of the actual workings of the act. That is a full statement as far as I know the case to be. Mr. KNUTSON. Well, that is a sort of Philadelphia lawyer statement. Let us get back to No. 4. Mr. CAREY. All right, sir. Mr. KNUTSON. Now, just what trade agreements have been submitted to Congress for scrutiny and review? Mr. CAREY. Feathers. You just told me so, the first time I heard of it, but that is just what you told me. Mr. KNUTSON. I mean turkeys. Mr. CAREY. Turkeys? Mr. KNUTSON. Yes; as a matter of fact, you know that none of these trade agreements are subject to any review by anyone? Mr. CAREY. I know that. Mr. KNUTSON. You know that? Mr. CAREY. I know that. Mr. KNUTSON. And you know that they are made behind closed doors, don't you? Mr. CAREY. I know-well, not exactly. Manufacturers do have an opportunity to present their ideas. Mr. KNUTSON. Oh, yes; of course you do, but you don't know what they are going to do to you. Mr. CAREY. You don't know finally, and there is no publication of the act in advance of the act being applicable. Mr. KNUTSON. No. Mr. CAREY. That is correct. I don't think there should be. Mr. KNUTSON. Well, their purpose is, of course, not to give it any more publicity until after the act has been entered into; signed, sealed, and delivered-isn't that true? Mr. CAREY. Yes; I think that is correct. Mr. KNUTSON. And do you think that that should continue? Mr. CAREY. I think it is the only way in which you could have a successful operation of a reciprocal trade act. Mr. KNUTSON. Well, after having heard you make your statement, that was what prompted me to ask if you were here at the request or the suggestion of the State Department. I understand we are going to have two or three State Department witnesses. I was wondering if you were one of them. Mr. CAREY. I have already answered the question. I am not. Mr. KNUTSON. I know. I am not asking you to answer it a second time. Mr. CAREY. Mr. Knutson Mr. KNUTSON. It has been suggested to me. Did you prepare this statement? Mr. CAREY. I helped in the preparation. I was not the only member who prepared it. Mr. KNUTSON. Who else helped prepare it? Mr. CAREY. It was prepared entirely by members of the Business Advisory Council for the Department of Commerce, some of whom are temporarily connected with the Government. Mr. KNUTSON (interposing). Have any of the Government people sat in on it? Mr. CAREY. No; they were all private individuals, sir. Mr. KNUTSON. Í don't want to pry into your personal affairs. Mr. CAREY. No; they were all individuals. Mr. KNUTSON. I don't want to pry into your private affairs. I want to be perfectly fair with you, but I am very inquisitive. Mr. CAREY. They were private individuals. Mr. KNUTSON. Yes; I presume the reason that the question is suggested is that that statement in part reads so much like Secretary Hull; it shows that great minds run in the same channels. That is all. Mr. CAREY. Thank you for the compliment, sir. I admire Mr. Hull. Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dingell, of Michigan, will inquire. Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Carey. Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. I noticed your prepared statement here is captioned "Business Advisory Council for the Department of Commerce." Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Likewise, it is a Report on Reciprocal Trade Agreements Program, and then it was "Approved by the Business Advisory Council March 10-11, 1943." Now, the first line starts out that The Business Advisory Council believes that failure to extend the Reciprocal Trade Agreements Act at this time would be most unfortunate since such action would be interpreted by the world as an indication of the intention of the American people to return to isolationism. Now, your printed statement contains a leaflet giving the names of the Business Advisory Council for the Department of Commerce. Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. And scanning this list, I didn't count the number, but I imagine there are probably 50 or more, possibly 75. Mr. CAREY. About 60, I believe. Mr. DINGELL. Sixty? Mr. CAREY. Something like that. Mr. DINGELL. Well, now, I just tried to guess the best I could by estimate. I find the names of some of the foremost American manufacturers and industrialists and bankers and others in this illustrious roll of members. Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir; I think that is true. Mr. DINGELL. And they give approval to your discourse here today? Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Is that correct? Mr. CAREY. That is correct. Mr. DINGELL. That is all I want to know. Mr. COOPER. And I understand you to say, Mr. Carey, you had been president of the United States Chamber of Commerce? Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir. Mr. COOPER. And chairman of the tariff committee of the United States Manufacturers' Association? Mr. CAREY. National Association of Manufacturers. Mr. COOPER. National Association of Manufacturers? Mr. COOPER. And were you chairman of that committee at the time Dr. Coulter was employed by the committee? Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir. Mr. COOPER (presiding). You were. All right. Mr. McGranery, of Pennsylvania, will inquire. Mr. MCGRANERY. Mr. Carey, I was very much interested in your statement, and Mr. Knutson, my good friend from Minnesota, asked you to name some item in the Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act that was to high. You said you could not think of anything at the moment. Did Mr. Grundy's recommendations escape your notice at that point? Mr. CAREY. No, sir; they did not. I was a young fellow trying to get along and trying to earn $30 a week at that time, and I wasn't following the individual items in the Grundy or Smoot-Hawley tariff. I have historically, however, seen the effect of that particular tariff, and I know the effect psychologically abroad, and I know that, in my opinion, it was on net balance bad. Mr. MCGRANERY. Well, you know that Mr. Grundy's recommendations were followed in the act? Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir. Mr. McGRANERY. You know the result? Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir. Mr. McGRANERY. The disastrous result? Mr. CAREY. I agree. Mr. McGRANERY. That is all. Mr. COOPER (presiding). That is all. Mr. REED. I want to ask one question, Mr. COOPER. I am sorry. I understood you to say you didn't have any. Mr. Reed, you may inquire. It is Mr. REED. I am very much interested in your statement. evident that you thought that a very large number of the agricultural commodities were too high in view of the fact that they were lowered by the President notwithstanding his speech at Baltimore. Mr. CAREY. Yes; there was a considerable number. Mr. REED. I have forgotten the exact number. I think there was about-how many were there? I think about 1,100 of the total number. How many agricultural commodities did they lower the duty on? Do you know? Two hundred and thirty-four. Well, they must have been too high in spite of the fact that the President in his Baltimore speech did not know of any that were too high and did not intend to lower them. That is all. Mr. COOPER (presiding). Mr. Dewey, of Illinois, will inquire. Mr. DEWEY. Mr. Carey, I wish to inquire into one subject. During the questioning by my colleague Mr. Knutson, you stated that there might be changes of conditions that would occur, devaluation of currencies and others, which would cause you to come seeking relief. Now, the other day when I think the Vice Chairman of the Tariff Commission was a witness, he explained at some length, at my request, the escape clause in the various trade agreements. I understand, the Chief Executive is permitted to withdraw any particular tariffs or rates or change them in whole or in part in any agreement at any time. It has been said that if the Congress had any powers to do any such thing like that it might embarrass the trading position of our State Department. If the Executive can annul or change any provisions, do you think it would be embarrassing in making these trades, if the Congress also had some rights to make changes, particularly as we view the uncertainties that may face the world and world trade after the war is over? Mr. CAREY. My view, Mr. Dewey, is this: That Congressmen individually are subjected to the pressures of their individual constituents and communities; a perfectly natural, proper process. That is the way Congressmen, in some measure anyway, find out what their constituents think about things. But the whole congressional process has to be one of amalgamation of points of view, so that you come out with an over-all result. Now, I don't believe that you can follow that broad process, that broad legislative process, in the operation of individual tariff arrangements between different countries. I think that it requires a weighing, very careful weighing, without political pressures or without partisanship, of the particular situation that is developing, in order to determine whether we should exercise our unilateral right to withdraw from a particular tariff agreement; and that right, as you now just stated, is perfectly clearly in the act. Mr. DEWEY. I was thinking of your own case, of the case of any constituent that comes to us feeling that his business is being jeopardized. That, after all, is the purpose of having committees of Congress here, so that we can look after, with some little facility, the requirements of our constituents. We live with them and they live with us. Mr. CAREY. Yes. Mr. DEWEY. And we are the only voice they have in the National Government. Therefore I was wondering why the Congress might not have the same powers that are given under the escape clauses to the Executive. Mr. CAREY. Because, sir, I think the congressional function is basically a legislative one. You pass a law, this particular law applying to |