Senator COUZENS. Did you ask Mr. Mills, Mr. Pecora, what Mr. Pletsch's position was in the bank?

Mr. MILLS. He was a vice president over in the mortgage department.

Senator COUZENS. Then he was one of the vice presidents of the bank?

Mr. MILLS. Yes, sir; he was one of Julius Haass' right-hand men. No, he wasn't in the mortgage department; he was in charge of buildings, I believe.

Mr. PECORA. After you received this memorandum from Mr. Dodge, what action did you take with respect to it?

Mr. MILLS. Well, it may be-I know that nothing was done. We certainly did not give a nickel to any such fund or to any such individual, that I can state. It may be that Mr. Dodge read it to the governing committee, or he may have handed it to me. I don't know. But I know that nothing was done about it.

Senator COUZENS. Was any reference made to it in the minutes of the board of directors, that you know of?

Mr. MILLS. I do not believe so, Senator Couzens. I think it is, obviously, a joke. I may be mistaken, but I do not believe any reference was made to it.

to

Mr. PECORA. From the fact that Mr. Dodge in this memorandum you says that:

Pletsch calls attention to the fact that the following five matters have been broached to him, of which numbers 1 and 4 have been adjusted to our satisfaction.

It seems to me that Mr. Dodge was referring to something in which the bank had an interest, or in which you as the executive officer of the bank had an interest.

Mr. MILLS. What were one and four?

Mr. PECORA. One was as to Ohlander, who, you say, was the chief of the State police; and no. 4 was as to the State highway depart

ment.

Mr. MILLS. I haven't the slightest idea what either of those refer

ences was.

Mr. PECORA. When you got this memorandum, did you discuss it with Dodge and ask him what he meant?

Mr. MILLS. No. I told you-and I am not certain, and do not recall the memorandum at all-but I believe it was read probably by Mr. Dodge at a meeting of the governing committee as a joke. That is my recollection only. I don't recall ever having seen the thing at all myself.

Senator COUZENS. Mr. Dodge is a serious-minded banker, isn't he? Mr. MILLS. He is; and he has a great sense of humor, too.

Senator COUZENS. It seems to me he has been recognized as a pretty serious-minded banker over the years, has he not?

Mr. MILLS. Mr. Dodge, I think, is an excellent banker; excellent. I think exceedingly high of Mr. Dodge.

Mr. PECORA. Mr. Mills, do you seriously advance the thought here that this memorandum was addressed to you by Mr. Dodge as a joke?

Mr. MILLS. I say it may have been. I do not know anything about it. I have no recollection of the thing whatsoever. It might

175541-34-PT 12-7

have been. I cannot conceive of Mr. Dodge, knowing him as I do, seriously making any such memorandum.

Mr. PECORA. Well, apparently, part of the memorandum refers to matters in which the bank had some interest, because he calls attention to the fact that of the 5 subjects broached to him by Mr. Pletsch, 2 of them had been adjusted to the satisfaction-or, he says "to our satisfaction ", and I presume he meant to the bank's satisfaction.

Mr. MILLS. I haven't the remotest idea we would have any interest in Mr. Ohlander of the State police. It is beyond me. This must be, and this is just a guess, Mr. Pecora, and Mr. Pletsch, as I recall it, was in charge of buildings, something about the maintenance of buildings, and it may be that he wanted a State policeman as a guard, or something of that kind. That suggests itself as a possi bility. As to the highway department, I haven't the remotest idea what that could be. I cannot guess.

Mr. PECORA. As to the State banking commissioner, what could that be?

Mr. MILLS. I do not see why the First National Bank would care at all who was the State banking commissioner. I do not know whether his term had expired then or was expiring. I do not even know whether Mr. Pletsch would be for or opposed to the then State banking commissioner.

Mr. PECORA. How about the subject of insurance on county funds! Mr. MILLS. That means nothing to me. Insurance on county funds means nothing to me.

Mr. PECORA. Doesn't it mean that where county funds were on deposit it would be necessary for the bank to insure their repayment, in the form of a surety bond?

Mr. MILLS. There was a law at that time, I believe, that required some bond; but I do not know what that would have reference to in a memorandum such as this-a political memorandum. I should like to know very much myself what some of these are.

Mr. PECORA. Why didn't you ask Mr. Dodge about them when you got this memorandum from him?

Mr. MILLS. Because, as I told you, I believed the whole matter was a joke.

Mr. PECORA. And the joke was continued in the meetings of the governing board of the bank referred to there, by means of the memorandum being read there?

Mr. MILLS. Not necessarily continued, but possibly started there by having it read. Mr. Dodge is too good a banker to make a serious matter out of these things.

Mr. PECORA. Well, do you see anything in this entire memorandum, in the phraseology of it, that indicates that Dodge did anything but call the subject matter of it to your attention in a serious mood? Mr. MILLS. No. But many jokes may be told in a serious manner. Mr. PECORA. Did you think this was that kind of joke that Dodge was relaying to you?

Mr. MILLS. I do not know. I have told you that I have no other recollection of it whatsoever.

Mr. PECORA. Well, now, I have what purports to be a photostatic reproduction of another memorandum addressed to you by Mr. Dodge under date of March 7, 1933.

Mr. MILLS. March, what date?

Mr. PECORA. March 7, 1933. And the typewritten portion of it reads as follows:

Mr.. Prevost called from the Free Press and said that the Times is building a swell bonfire in Lansing on this bank investigation, predicated on the Grosse Pointe bank note transactions and the published letters. He suggests that you consider making a statement to the effect that you will welcome any kind of investigation.

And it is signed in typewriting "J. M. Dodge." Do you recall that?

Mr. MILLS. Not the memorandum. I recall the incident.

Mr. PECORA. You recall the incident to which it refers?
Mr. MILLS. Yes.

Mr. PECORA. What was that?

Mr. MILLS. I can best-well, when that incident came up I asked Mr. Livingstone to prepare a memorandum for me as to what had been done with reference thereto. I have that memorandum here. Senator COUZENS. In reference to what?

Mr. MILLS. The matter mentioned there. Will you read it, please, Mr. Pecora, the latter part of it, or all of it?

Mr. PECORA. I will read the whole thing.

Mr. MILLS. Well, it was as to the Grosse Pointe notes.

Senator COUZENS. What investigation was he talking about in March of 1933 ?

Mr. MILLS. That is the matter I am going to take up and read. Senator COUZENS. All right.

Mr. MILLS. I say, when that memorandum was given to me, I took the matter up with the bank and found that it was a matter Mr. Livingstone was handling, and he made a report of it, and I have it in some place among my papers here.

Senator COUZENS. Are you going to tell us what examination was going to be made in January of 1933? That is what I am unable to understand.

Mr. MILLS. I think there was. I think the prosecutor's office, or the attorney general or the prosecutor-both came into the bank, and we told them they were perfectly welcome to come in. The bank holiday was on, and this was one of the matters that they came in to talk about. Mr. Livingstone had the matter in hand, and I have his memorandum here.

Senator COUZENS. Had there been and discussion in March of 1933 that there was going to be an investigation of the bank?

Mr. MILLS. That is covered in the memorandum. Not this kind of an investigation, or a one-man grand-jury investigation, or anything of that sort. It was about the sale of some notes.

Senator COUZENS. It was not known to the public, was it?

Mr. MILLS. Oh, yes; because that was what caused the trouble. It was known generally from the papers.

Senator COUZENS. Was it published in the press that there was going to be an examination on March 7, 1933, or about that time? Mr. MILLS. About that time there was a lot in the papers about the subject matter.

Mr. PECORA. And the suggestion-

Mr. MILLS (continuing). And Mr. Livingstone's statement was finally given to all of the papers, and it was published by some of them I know, and that ended the matter.

Mr. PECORA. Now, on this memorandum that I have just read to you there appears in handwriting the following inscription:

The officers on the floor report that the public say another 5 percent is the bunk; that the banks might as well keep it if they cannot issue more scrip than 5 percent.

Will you tell me if you recognize the handwriting in which that memorandum is made?

Mr. MILLS (after looking at the paper). No; I do not know the handwriting.

Mr. PECORA. It is written on the memorandum that you received from Mr. Dodge.

Mr. MILLS. That is true.

Mr. PECORA. It is not your handwriting?

Mr. MILLS. No.

Mr. PECORA. Is it Mr. Dodge's handwriting?

Mr. MILLS. I don't know Mr. Dodge's handwriting, because his communications to me were always typewritten. I wouldn't know his signature-oh, yes; I would know his signature, but I would not know his handwriting.

Mr. PECORA. Was the handwritten portion of this memorandum on there when you received it from Dodge?

Mr. MILLS. I don't know whether it was or not. I wouldn't say that it was or that it was not. I don't know.

Mr. PECORA. Does the subject of the handwritten portion of the memorandum appeal to you as a subject in which you were interested at that time?

Mr. MILLS. Oh, yes. Do you mean now the superscription! Mr. PECORA. Yes; the handwritten portion of the memorandum. Mr. MILLS. Yes.

Mr. PECORA. What did that refer to?

Mr. MILLS. Well, you see the bank holiday in Michigan came very suddenly. People were left absolutely strapped. The first week of the holiday, in order to give some relief to stricken Detroiters, I will say, the clearing house met and determined that all the banks, and the trust companies also met, that all of the banks, or such as could, would pay out on a certain date 5 percent; permit the public to take 5 percent of their deposits.

The CHAIRMAN. In cash or in scrip?

Mr. MILLS. Oh, in cash. We had at the closing over $60,000,000 of cash or its equivalent. So 5 percent was set aside in a special fund, as I recall it, for the depositors. Well, the holiday and one thing and another went on, continued. You see the holiday started on the 13th I think it was, or the 14th

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Of February?

Mr. MILLS. Yes. And cash was at quite a premium in Detroit. So they wanted more cash. There was quite a difference of opinion as to whether the banks should make another 5 percent distribution, and there was talk in the press, as I recall it-I mean in cash. And we had plenty of funds to make it. And it was later made in cash. And the talk was as to whether it would be advisable to issue clear

ing house scrip for more than 5 percent, and it was to that matter that the superscription on that memorandum evidently refers. The CHAIRMAN. What did they do about that?

Mr. MILLS. All the banks finally issued cash, paid another 5 percent in cash. There was a great deal of talk and agitation about clearing-house script, however.

The CHAIRMAN. That was not resorted to at all, was it?

Mr. MILLS. It was not resorted to at all, Senator Fletcher.

Mr. PECORA. Mr. Mills, I have before me what purports to be a printed pamphlet or advertisement issued by the Peoples Wayne County Bank, dated January 1931, upon the front page of which is the reproduction of a painting entitled "The Buccaneers." Will you look at it and tell me if it is one piece of literature or advertising matter that the bank distributed to the public?

Mr. MILLS. It was before my time.

Mr. PECORA. Will you just look at it and tell me if you recognize it? Mr. MILLS (after looking at the printed folder). No. I see what it purports to be, but it was before my time. Of course, it purports to be advertising matter.

Senator COUZENS. Put out by the Peoples Wayne County Bank? Mr. MILLS. Obviously.

Mr. PECORA. Mr. Chairman, I wish to offer it in evidence. The CHAIRMAN. Of course we cannot reproduce the painting. Mr. PECORA. It is not very extensive as to the printed part of it, and it might be marked for identification only, and then I will read the printed part of it.

(A printed folder, on the front of which was a reproduction of the painting "The Buccaneers ", was marked "Committee Exhibit No. 140 for identifcation, Feb. 6, 1934", and will be held among the papers of the subcommittee, but Mr. Pecora read the printed portion of the printed pamphlet.)

Senator COUZENS. Mr. Mills, do you like the title "The Buccaneers"?

Mr. MILLS. I think there is more to it than the title. There is more to it than meets the eye by looking at the reproduction of the painting. That is the name of a painting, isn't it, Mr. Pecora?

Mr. PECORA. I will presume so, but not being an art critic I will not attempt to answer more definitely.

Mr. MILLS. Well, it so indicates.

Mr. PECORA. The printed matter in this exhibit no. 140 for identification, reads as follows:

Years ago pirates were called "Buccaneers." They went about in ships, and only people near the sea were robbed. [Laughter.]

Today pirates are called "crooks." They go about in automobiles. They get more money with their tongues than pirates of olden days got with their swords. Why?

It is not their cleverness does it-it is yours.

You are clever in your own field of work, and that deceived you into thinking, I know a good thing when I see it."

No crook can sell a worthless saw to a carpenter. But he can sell it to a grocer or lawyer-because it is not their business to know saws.

No crook can sell poor land to a farmer.

or a mechanic.

But he can sell it to a doctor

A crook cannot sell worthless "investments" to a reliable bank or bondhouse because they know investments, just as a carpenter knows saws.