more effective. And that is a program that the city wants to get introduced in the high schools.

Chairman GLENN. I was told by staff that this was good. This is a folder that gives a lot of questions and answers, called, "A gift for life: Help your Children Stay Drug and Alcohol-Free," by the American Council of Drug Education. I don't think we have enough copies of this to put out to everybody here today, but I will get some and send them back to you. It is specifically geared toward parents.

Mr. RINEHART. We would definitely like to have a copy of that. Chairman GLENN. We will get it for you, and we will also make sure you get a copy of the film available to you. You could review it, put it out in the schools, or put it on TV.

Captain Flannery, you are listening here at the grass roots on this thing. The DARE Program has been mentioned. I think you alluded to that. Did you say you have that, or did you say you did not have that because of a lack of funding.

Captain FLANNERY. Yes. I was reading the city manager's letter, which I think you have a copy of. It is because of lack of funding. We do not have an officer to put in the schools half a semester. It is effective, because in the little "Say no" Program, these youngsters sometimes, if they don't have parenting at home, don't have a father or mother, what have you, they want, as we say in police terminology, they want to unload on the officer. They want to tell the officer their trouble, and it is a very good catharsis for these children, plus they learn mannerisms on how to deal with peer pressure, which is very, very good. It's an excellent program. I would recommend highly the DARE Program and wish we had funding for the DARE Program.

Chairman GLENN. Mayor Voinovich, what is the split, of total dollars what is the split, that you think should come to the local level as opposed to the State level of the Federal programs? Do you have any ideas on that? Should there be just certain areas, like the DARE Program, that get get direct Federal funding so that there aren't monies dissipated at the state level? How do we do that?

Mr. VOINOVICH. Well, I think that Captain Flannery has said, "We don't have money for the DARE program." Mayor Rinehart is fortunate in his budget to be able to have a DARE person in each one of the high schools. We have 10 officers that are moving around the city. We could use more officers in the DARE Program. If it is a program that really works, I'd say we are going to put the Federal money directly into that program, use it and restrict it for that purpose, because you know that you are going to get a good bank for your profit.

Chairman GLENN. If that is a good program, how do you get support for it? Do you have to apply to the State for funds, and would the State then get Federal funds, or a combination of that?

Mr. RINEHART. No, we do, Senator. We do. Now, our officers, to become certified officers, go to the Ohio Police Officers' Training Academy to get the training and certification. We just take an officer-or in our case, a whole bunch of them-send them through school, educate them, boom, they get assigned to a school, and that is what they do.

you

We did a poll, Senator, last year when we started that, of all, not some, all parents, a survey of all the teachers, all the administrators and all the kids that were exposed to DARE, "Tell us what think," because we wanted to know. "Should we keep doing this? Should we change it?" All that stuff. It's a big fat hole. Bottom line, 96 percent approval rating by the children, 97 percent approval rating by teachers and administrators and like 99.99 percent approval rating by the parents.

Kids today can't wait-you go out here on West Broad Elementary, they can't wait, the fifth graders, to get through the year so they get their DARE T-shirt. And they are smart. They really know drugs. They know how to say no. But our funding is all local. That comes right through this city council, and they have got to make the commitment.

Chairman GLENN. Have you seen estimates, then, on drug abuse? Mr. RINEHART. No, it's hard to say, because it's not old enough. We have had it only 2 years in Columbus, and we have only had crack since 1987. I don't know. But can I comment on your question to George real quick?

Chairman GLENN. Sure.

Mr. RINEHART. Look, if I sit at the Federal level where you determine aid to the States versus the cities, the States administer, for the most part, our welfare system. We don't do any welfare at city hall. That is not at the county level, and it comes to the State, into the county, and they administer it like the medical support programs. If it's a treatment dollar, it makes sense to go to the Ohio Department of Health and let the Ohio Department of Health work with the 88 counties, but if it's an education dollar or law-enforcement dollar, then it makes sense to go like George was saying, directly to the cities.

The State doesn't have anything to do with our DARE Program other than we pay them to use their academy. They don't have anything to do with "Just say no" Program. They don't have anything to do with doing drug raids and with how many officers are in narcotics and the SWAT team. They don't do it, we do that here, the city council, mayor, and so on. Those dollars should come here. Chairman GLENN. Captain Flannery, I see you shaking your head. Do you agree with that?

Captain FLANNERY. I am agreeing. That is true. Mayor is right. Ms. LAZARUS. Senator, I suggest that as few restrictions be placed on any direct dollars to the city as possible. The DARE Program was set up to maximize the particular age of the kids in that time of their lives with a person to whom they are going to be very responsive, and in that particular age, that point of their development a police officer is someone who is a very compelling figure. But the variance between community to community and how the police department might be regarded, apart from the chronological differences in our kids from first grade to high school level, I think I would really argue against saying all of these direct dollars must go to implementation of DARE Programs.

I think one of the real advantages to being a part of local government is that you have a much greater sense of what are the resources and strengths of your community and what are the weaknesses, and to be compelled to try and work within a system that

works very well in Columbus, OH, may work great in Cleveland, OH, but doesn't make any sense for Peoria, I think would be a real mistake.

Chairman GLENN. Chances are we are going to still have people that need to be locked up. Why do we need great brick-and-mortar monuments to put people in? As I have said before-most of you were in the room, I think-I spent a good deal of my life in quonset huts and Butler buildings, and, Buck, I know you did, too, and I don't think it warped my personality too much. Maybe it did, but I think we can put people in facilities like that and not worry about things like the old Ohio pen. What are we doing in that regard? Mr. VOINOVICH. I will tell you something, I will compile for you the rules and regulations that we are getting out of the State of Ohio.

Chairman GLENN. That was going to be my next question. Is this a matter where we need to change the standards of people being incarcerated at the State and the Federal level?

Mr. RINEHART. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Chairman GLENN. Both, or is it mainly a Federal problem?

Mr. VOINOVICH. It is a standard that we have a situation where we don't have enough jail space, and we go around the State, people are trying to open up buildings they are trying to use, and they nit-pick you to death. The excuse is that the Federal standards are requiring this and requiring that, and trying to open up new facilities that are a hundred times better than the old ones. The old ones are still open, and they are preventing them from opening up the new ones. I think that whole thing needs to be looked at and loosened up so that we can do these things in a more orderly fashion.

Chairman GLENN. From your observation, both of the mayors in particular, is this something that is primarily Federal? Do I need to work on that in Washington, or

Mr. RINEHART. It starts at the Federal level. Excuse me, Senator. It starts at the Federal level. If you look at the Federal regulations with respect to incarcerations that are applicable to the States, they are-I mean, just try to xerox them. You are talking about boxes of stuff. How many light bulbs, what wattage, how many square feet, and then it comes down to the State, and they work within those confines and the State slaps it down to the local level, and so you get this stupid consequence:

Franklin County, Columbus, OH, you want to incarcerate a juvenile 17 years old, crack user, burglar, a robber, a purse snatcher. You want to put that human being behind bars. Do you know how many people it takes. I am talking about-forget the judges, the lawyers and police officers and all that-I am talking about to put the person in a room and shut the door, five people. We have Federal and State mandates for psychologists, so many per unit. For recreation leader, so many. We have to have not only 24-hour-aday-

Chairman GLENN. Recreation?

Mr. RINEHART. Yes, sir, recreation leaders. So our county commissioners here—and, now, believe me, I am not carrying any water for them, but it's the truth. They are right. They are going to build a 117-bed maximum-security facility for juveniles here.

The cost is just mind-boggling. The average home owner who lives-use me, on Corporate Avenue in Clintonville-is blown away by the cost to put that person in there.

Let me just tell you one of them. This city council right here, between now and the next few weeks, will approve a contract for incarceration that will cost the taxpayers of Columbus $38.75 per day per prisoner. Forget the juveniles, now, they are way higher than that. Now, in comes a smart businessman and says, "Now, look here, City Council, I will incarcerate these people for you for $20 a day, feed them, clothe them, wash their clothes, make sure they get a nice color TV, get a nice clean bed, the whole bit, and save you 18 bucks a day."

So now all of a sudden we have got cities across America are looking at private incarceration. How can they get away with something the governments can't? Because all of a sudden you get the differentiation in standards when you go to the private-sector contractor to do this than if the local government goes to do the incarceration itself. It is absolutely a bizarre set of standards that has to be met.

Chairman GLENN. Are we going more to private incarceration or contract incarceration?

Mr. RINEHART. We are looking at it right now.

Chairman GLENN. Should we be moving in that direction?

Mr. RINEHART. Maybe we should. We are looking at it right now. We have got a jail team here, Councilman John Kennedy is head of our Safety Committee, and the Safety Director, Al Montgomery, are looking at that prospect right now. But the craziness is that some of these regulations just prohibit common sense. They prohibit a work camp, for instance, for youthful offenders. They prohibit having adult prisoners leave the facility for purposes of mowing grass or raking leaves. I mean, they prohibit things that are common sense out there, and the people are terribly frustrated by it. That is an area that needs a lot of work.

Ms. LAZARUS. Senator, something that I think Senator Pfeifer mentioned before just like that, it is the exposure that local governments face under the 1983 Act based on jail conditions. It is a problem for all of us, not only in terms of the cost to build the full bricks-and-mortar type of facility, but to face that kind of exposure to our municipal treasuries.

We can look now at portable trailers for some detention facilities. But I don't think there is one of us who will be sleeping in the evening in terms of the exposure that the city can then incur by looking at things that really make a great deal of sense from a common-sense standpoint, but we face review by standards that I think are unrealistic in our judicial system that I think is struggling to do the right thing, business having disastrous consequences.

Chairman GLENN. The staff of this committee, in preparation for this hearing, was here last week for the Governor's Summit Meeting on Drugs, and I think the figures I was just handed undoubtedly came out of that summit meeting. It says, "Ohio spends $28 million a year to house new drug inmates. It costs an average of $14,130 per inmate per year to jail drug offenders in Ohio."

Well, we could go on with this. I think there is a lot we have to work on. We want to get back to you and we want to work together on this. As it has been said several times this morning, it is a cooperative effort of Federal, State and local governments, and you are on the cutting edge of this whole thing.

Also brought up several times this morning was the need for better role models and the need for parents setting examples for their kids. The staff passed me a question to ask you earlier: are any of you gentlemen or ladies going to a Christmas or New Years party in which alcohol will be served? I won't ask for your response now. It's a very good question. If we are all role models, we are all parents, we are all involved in public affairs, public duty, public roles that people look at, should we have a drive for parents and all the rest of us to "just say no"? How many will go and have several drinks and drive home? The kids know that.

Mr. RINEHART. Sure.

Chairman GLENN. And how many of us are willing to say no, we won't do that; to just say no as parents and as examples for other people? We don't have a full hearing room, we have got 30 or 40 people here this morning. It's not a bad little cadre to just start out; if you are invited to a party this Christmas and alcohol is being served, don't take it, just say, "No," and that's that. It might be very effective.

Mr. VOINOVICH. One group that has done a marvelous job here, haven't gotten enough publicity, is the MADD group. They have their red ribbon, and my security vehicle has a red ribbon on it. Basically, what they are saying, you don't drink and drive. They are not saying no to alcohol. They are saying if you say yes to alcohol that you also say, "I will not drive an automobile."

Chairman GLENN. The first step is for us adults to set some examples for the kids. Then maybe they will start thinking about this. Maybe that's the first step in developing the peer pressure. This has been a very interesting meeting.

We will continue this afternoon at 1:30. Our witnesses this afternoon, will begin with Bill Picard, who is Coordinator for a DrugFree Environment, City of Canton. We will also have Cartie Finkbeiner, Vice-Mayor of Toledo. The Mayor could not be here, so the Vice-Mayor is going to be here. Charles Meadows, Director of Community Affairs, Dayton, and then at 3 o'clock the Governor will be here. We will have questions for that panel, the first panel, and also for the Governor on some of the efforts that he has been making. He is on his way back from Washington and I understand he will be here at 3 o'clock this afternoon in spite of the weather. We hope that is correct.

This has been a very interesting morning. We obviously have an awful lot to think about; we need better coordination in our jails, in how we incarcerate people, and in how we make court penalties mean something when there isn't any place to incarcerate people. We have a system of fines and community service but basically how do you instill in the minds of young people that it's just not right? It requires the best of our brainpower to get along in this world and not muddle it up with the pop-skull-type stuff that inhibits our mental capacities.