lives more adults who can act as role models, more activities and experiences in which they can learn the importance and the value of their self, in which they can gain a view of a positive future and they have supports towards achieving that future. We, lastly, must recognize the resource the young people themselves represent, probably the critical resource.

In 1980 a few blocks from here I saw a team of young men living in a housing project, some delinquents, all rough and growing up in the same neighborhood you were in yesterday. Those young men took an apartment in public housing, it was vacant for 3 years, filled with dirt of different varieties, destroyed, vandalized. They cleaned it out, they put up new wallboard, they laid new floor, they hung new windows and new doors and a place that was vacant for 3 years has been occupied for the past 5 or 6-the last I heard of it it was 3 years, occupied by a family. A group of men and women like the ones here today, initially of Cleveland, were capable of restoring a derelict into a home for a family.

There are great resources in these young people. We have got to help them express their ability, their dreams and achieve their future, because our future is tied up very closely with their ability to escape the conditions which you saw yesterday.

Just in closing, in Central High School area, sad to say, but unless we change them, half of the young people we saw yesterday will not graduate. A significant number will become parents. Violence of the young men you saw yesterday will be the chief cause of death before they are 35.

We are at risk, and we have got to listen very carefully to get some clues from these young people as to the kind of strategy to take place.

Chairman GLENN. Thank you, Mike.

Debra Curlee. Debra, you have a statement, I believe.

TESTIMONY OF DEBRA CURLEE, FEDERATION FOR COMMUNITY

PLANNING 1

Ms. CURLEE. Yes. Thank you. As Co-director of the Federation for Community Planning Youth Action Project, which is designed to meet the complex needs of today's youth. We are taking a holistic approach. Drug abuse and misuse, teen pregnancy, early child-bearing, dropout, juvenile crime and youth gang, youth unemployment are all symptoms of a broader community problem.

When youth do not have significant support and encouragement, they are more likely to set goals or plans for the future that are not the goals and plans that we would like for them to set as a society. The results may be any or all of the above that will destroy their young lives.

We must refocus our efforts into what I would like to call holistic prevention. What I mean by "holistic prevention" is that we cannot solve one problem of youth without looking at all the problems that they have. One youth does not have just a drug problem or just a juvenile delinquency problem, it is usually two or more of those involved.

1 See p. 169 for Ms. Curlee's prepared statement.

I have brought here three of the forty-five participants we use in a series of focus groups. The focus group was designed to get their opinion around, first of all, sexuality and what it means to them. What came out of that group—and I have a copy of that for your record 1-is that youth are saying, "We have nothing to do after school. We have nothing to support our efforts when we are in school, and we have very little positive things within our communities to do."

1

So what do they see? They see teen pregnancy, they see drug abuse and misuse, they see violence and they see crime. As we know, we grow up to mentor what we see, and what our youth will mentor is the negative activities that they see.

When we look at our 50 percent dropout rate, when we see that 22 percent of our teen mothers will have another baby within the next year or within 24 months, and other statistics, it is all too evident that we must look at the whole youth, we must target those activities and programs that will address their needs of the whole child.

We need to begin to program for youth and assist parents. We have a large number of single-headed households in the city of Cleveland, not all on public assistance. We need a system for designing programs that will meet their needs for supervised structure, holistic programming for those youth.

As the years have gone by we have seen a decrease in programs that offer socialization and social development of our youth in the community. How else do you learn structure except by someone that is willing to supervise that structure?

We can often say we don't want them to just play basketball, but how do they learn team sports without having those sports that give the rules and regulations. If you don't follow those rules, like life, you are removed from that game at that point in time.

We don't provide them with art, we don't give them choices of music other than what they listen to and see on TV and radio. It becomes apparent as a society we need and we must begin to look at the things that we as children had to support our environment, as well as when we are planning, what is it we would like for our own youth to achieve in their development?

I think that will assist us in beginning to identify and recognize that all children need same support systems and that we as a community has to provide those support systems. I think if you will address the questions to the youth on this panel, they are very open, they are very honest, they will give you the direct answer that they feel they need for their support.

Chairman GLENN. Thank you, Debra. There are a couple of questions for you and Mike before we get on with this. William Bennett, the Federal Drug Czar, at a recent appearance before the Senate Judiciary Committee, said that he thought children are more likely to respond to aggressive law enforcement and assured punishment than to drug education programs. Would you comment on that?

1 See p. 256.

Mr. STRINGER. OK, I will just speak from one experience in Columbus where we were working with a project on a housing state. We have a base officer there who is an officer of the court. He appreciates strict enforcement against the drug dealers who live in that housing state, but he also recognizes that the other side of it has got to be a positive identity in role and way out of the housing state for the young that are living there. It is not an either/or. It is not just education, an adult saying, "No." It is an alternative opportunity for the young people for what drugs provide.

Chairman GLENN. Debra.

Ms. CURLEE. Again, I think what we have to look at the other side. If I am saying "No" to drugs, what am I saying "Yes" to? And if I don't see anything positive to say "Yes" to, I will say "Yes" to some other kind of behavior, our youth will get out of those institutions and return back to their same environment.

We have, as a society, put such a brand on the dollar, on gold, on silver, on having money, but we have not taught youth the tools they need to acquire them in a positive way. So we just put them in jail. We still have a lot of youth in our community that need the positive supports that are not there.

Chairman GLENN. Billie Osborne is here this morning with your young people. Billie, do you want to introduce the young people you have brought down this morning?

TESTIMONY OF BILLIE OSBORNE, ACCOMPANIED BY KEVIN GOINS, KATRINA GORHAM, ANNA PENNA, MAURICE POWERS, AND NATHANIEL WASHINGTON

Ms. OSBORNE. I would like to introduce Mr. Kevin Goins, who is here from Central Intermediate School. We also have Miss Katrina Gorham from Jamison Intermediate School, Anna Penna from Central Intermediate School, Mr. Maurice Powers from George Washington Carver Elementary School, and we have Mr. Nathaniel Washington from John F. Kennedy Senior High.

Chairman GLENN. Thank you all very much. I hope you won't be awed by being in the Cleveland City Council Chamber, and I feel sort of like a king sitting up here in this exalted dias here. In fact, I tried to get the staff to work something out so I would be down there more with you on your level so we could talk eyeball to eyeball down there and it didn't work. It turns out this lower podium is immovable because of wiring and so on. They originally had me sitting in that great chair over there that looks like King Henry VIII's chair sitting back there in the corner, which I guess is the usual chair up here. But I would prefer to be down there where we could talk a little bit closer.

But, you know, I read a short time ago something where it says that some young people estimated there are ten times more involvement in drugs among young people than their parents know about. Do you think that is accurate, Kevin? Do you think there is a lot more drug use than any of us really know about?

Mr. GOINS. Could be.

Chairman GLENN. How about any of the rest of you? Nathaniel, what do you think?

Mr. WASHINGTON. I think there is a lot more in that community than you'd think of, and I would think that you would get involved more about it, find out where it's at and do something about it.

Chairman GLENN. Is there a lot more alcohol use than drug use and coke and marijuana?

Mr. WASHINGTON. I think so. Like I said, again, I think we should do something about it, just to find the people who do it and do something about it.

Chairman GLENN. What, the people who are pushing it, the people who are selling it or the kids themselves?

Mr. WASHINGTON. The kids themselves and the people who are selling it.

Chairman GLENN. How about the statement I said a minute ago that William Bennett, who is the Federal drug czar-he is the one who runs the whole program for the Federal Government-says that he thinks kids would more likely respond to aggressive law enforcement and assured punishment than drug education programs. What do you think about that? Do you think the kids have to have a tight rein put on as far as enforcement of law goes?

Mr. WASHINGTON. Yes, I do, and I'd like to state that when kids do get picked up for selling drugs and they go to court for the first time, this court lets them go, because it's their first time. I think they should be a little more aggressive, put them in jail and scare them, more than 30 days, like six months and maybe after you take them out, maybe they won't do it again.

Chairman GLENN. Katrina, what do you think?

Miss GORHAM. I think personally if you put someone in jail that is not doing anything for our community, because I feel that when they get out they are just going to be worse. You know, "Hey, I been in jail once. All they can do again is lock me up." That is the attitude of some people when that is what happened to them.

Chairman GLENN. What do you do with them, then, if you have somebody that is selling and he or she is a high school student or intermediate school? What do you do with them?

Miss GORHAM. Well, I personally feel that, you know, I'd agree that they should be locked up, but I feel they should have some kind of punishment besides just sitting in a jail or just sitting without capital punishment.

Chairman GLENN. What kind of punishment can we give them? I am putting you on the spot.

Miss GORHAM. I really don't know. I think that you should give them, you know, like today the older people like adults, when they are, you know, like murdering and stuff, they have capital punishment. You know, there is crime-some crimes are-you know, they are sent to the chair or are sent for a life sentence. You don't have to do it-that is kind of harsh, but if that's what it takes, I think that's what we should do.

Chairman GLENN. Anna, what do you think? If you have someone that is caught, do we just aggressively put them in jail for a while? What do you think we ought to do with a 15- or 16-year-old that is caught for peddling?

Miss PENNA. I think you should put them in jail, because he is old enough to know what he is doing.

Chairman GLENN. Then what? Have rehabilitation programs when they come out?

Miss PENNA. Um-hum.

Chairman GLENN. Kevin, what do you think?

Mr. GOINS. I think the first time they get in trouble they shouldn't go to jail, they should work in the community. They can do so many hours of that. That way they don't go to jail the first time, then they get punished the next time they get caught.

Chairman GLENN. Maurice, the question I started off with here, do you think there is more involvement with drugs among young people than their parents know about?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, I think it is, because the kids that do it hide drugs and they put them in their closets and everything.

Chairman GLENN. How about alcohol? Is alcohol what is used first, usually?

Mr. POWERS. In some cases it might be.

Chairman GLENN. Do you think there are many kids go straight to smoking marijuana or crack or cocaine use, they go straight to that without ever having used alcohol, or would that be pretty rare?

Mr. POWERS. It would probably be rare, because their friends probably push them to it.

Chairman GLENN. Let me ask all of you here, there are lots of ways that adults try and tell kids to stay off of drugs or try to influence them to stay off drugs. Teachers tell them, they have posters and ads, famous people say, "Just say no." What works best to convince you and your friends to stay off drugs? What doesn't work? What do you laugh at, what do you giggle about or what do you think is a joke more or less? Kevin?

Mr. GOINS. People don't look at the posters, but when people come to school and talk to us, like you come to school and talk to us, kids listen to that. Like the groups we have got at school where kids got teachers telling them what the drugs can do to them, I think that works more better than these guys that write posters. Chairman GLENN. Do you get much information at home about drugs, or is it just something you just don't talk about?

Mr. WASHINGTON. Yes, I do get a lot of talk at home about drugs and alcohol, mostly get fashion models on clothes from my teacher and because they are supposed to speak to us.

Chairman GLENN. What works? "Just say no," that is one thing, and I understand that became sort of a joke more or less after a while, and something else comes up. What do you think works best to keep you and your friends off drugs?

Mr. WASHINGTON. Well, personally, bring more speakers to our school and have them talk about drugs, because people will listen to people who come to our school, and have them talk about drugs and what it does to you, things like that. I think that we will think about that.

Chairman GLENN. Is that part of the program in your school right now, that they have a lot of outside people come and talk to you about it, that is, people that you would look up to, or is that not a major part of the program?

Mr. WASHINGTON. A lot of speakers do come to our school and talk to us about it, and the kids in our school listen to them, and