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Mr. PECORA. And it came into your possession by virtue of your employment by Governor Groesbeck as receiver of the group?

Mr. WILKIN. No, sir; it did not.
Mr. PECORA. How did it come into your possession?

Mr. Wilkin. My secretary received it from one of the office boys of the Guardian.

Mr. PECORA. Of the Guardian National Bank of Commerce?
Mr. Wilkin. Yes, sir.
Senator COUZENS. How did the office boy get it?
Mr. WILKIN. I suppose he copied it out of the files.
Mr. PECORA. He did not do that of his own initiative, did he?
Mr. WILKIN. Well, he did not do it on mine.
Mr. PECORA. Do you know how he came to do it?

Mr. WILKIN. No, sir; I do not, unless my secretary asked him to do it.

That was a Mr. Pecora (interposing). Can you suggest any reason why your secretary should have asked this office boy to do that?

Mr. WILKIN. Yes, I can.
Mr. PECORA. Give it to me.

Mr. WILKIN. There was some discussion about this item in Flint. They had a grand jury investigation

Mr. PECORA (interposing). Who took part in that discussion?
Mr. Wilkin. I don't know, apart from one person.
Mr. PECORA. And who was that?

Mr. WILKINS. It was Strassler, the fellow who initialed these debit slips here. So I was out of town when this happened, and he went up there and came back and told my secretary what had happened at that investigation, and

Mr. PECORA (interposing). What investigation do you mean, now?

Mr. Wilkin. The investigation in Flint. They had investigated, apparently, this bank at Flint, with this 1-man grand jury. Mr. PECORA. Who made that investigation ?

Mr. Wilkin. I think it was Judge Black. Now, I am not certain about that. I never was called.

Mr. PECORA. Go ahead and complete your answer.

Mr. WILKIN. So he returned, and I was out of town, and he told my secretary what he had been questioned about up there. He is the young fellow that I took to Flint with me when I went up there after that big defalcation in that bank. He came back and reported what they had asked him, reported to my secretary. And she was formerly Covington's secretary in the Guardian National Bank. At any rate, she knew or found out that there was such a memorandum in the files of the Guardian. Mr. PECORA. By “she” do you mean your secretary? Mr. WILKIN. Yes, sir. Mr. PECORA. Go ahead.

Mr. Wilkin. And she asked this young fellow, whom she knew and whom I didn't know, to get this copy of it for her. And she turned it over to me.

Senator Couzens. Was he working in the bank?

Mr. WILKIN. I don't know, Senator Couzens. I imagine he must have been in order to get this.

Mr. PECORA. Will you tell the committee the substance of what your secretary told you? I mean about how she had learned about the discussion that you have referred to, and about the investigation.

Mr. Wilkin. Well, she told me that while I was gone the deputy sheriff came down and took Strassler out of the Trust Co. and back to Flint to appear before the investigation.

Senator COUZENS. Do you mean the grand jury investigation?
Mr. WILKIN. Yes, sir.

Senator COUZENS. Was that a grand jury investigation or some other kind of investigation!

Mr. WILKIN. I don't know.

Mr. PECORA. You are not referring to the 1-man grand jury investigation held in Detroit, are you? Mr. WILKIN. No, sir.

Mr. PECORA. You are referring to a grand jury investigation held over in Flint?

Mr. WILKIN. Yes. Senator COUZENS. Do you mean to say to me that you don't know whether that grand jury proceeding was open or closed?

Mr. WILKIN. I don't know; no, sir.

Mr. PECORA. Go ahead and complete your statement of what your secretary told you about the matter.

Mr. WILKIN. Well, she wanted to see, or she asked this boy to look at, the files over in the bank, to see if there was anything there concerning this matter. And he apparently got this out of the files and gave it to her. That is all I know about it.

Senator COUZENS. That isn't the original, is it?
Mr. WILKIN. No, sir; that is a copy.

Mr. PECORA. I am going to offer in evidence the document produced by the witness, which is a copy of what this office boy gave your secretary; is that it?

Mr. Wilkin. Yes, sir.
Mr. PECORA. Mr. Chairman, I offer it.
The CHAIRMAN. Let it be admitted, and made a part of the record.

(The memorandum dated Jan. 3, 1932, was marked " Committee Exhibit No. 102, Jan. 19, 1934, and will be found immediately following where read by Mr. Pecora.)

Mr. PECORA. The memorandum, which is typewritten and unsigned, reads as follows: W.P.J.

JANUARY 3, 1932. Mr. H. R. Wilkin telephoned today regarding a deposit of $600,000 which we were supposed to make with him over the year-end in the form of a certificate of deposit. I discussed the matter with Mr. B. K. Patterson of the Guardian Detroit Union Group, Inc., and it seems that due to the confusion incidental to the consolidating of the Guardian Detroit Bank and the National Bank of Commerce, the instructions which he forwarded to us were mislaid. Due, however, to the fact that it was to be a transaction of a few days' duration it was decided that, rather than going to the trouble of making out a certificate of deposit and adjusting the entries on our books, the transaction would be better concluded by the Union Industrial Trust & Savings Bank of Flint making the necessary entries on their books.

Now, Mr. Wilkin, does this memorandum, which you say was prepared by Mr. Jacobs, and whose initials are “W. P. J.” confirm, according to your recollection of the telephone conversation alluded to therein, and to which you were a participant!

Mr. WILKIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. PECORA. What did you understand was meant by this reference to this committee exhibit no. 102:

Dne, however, to the fact that it was to be a transaction of a few days' duration.

Mr. WILKIN. That is not my language.

Mr. Pecora. I know that. But what do you understand it refers to!

Mr. WILKIN. Apparently that it was just short-time money that I had.

Mr. PECORA. That referred to the $600,000 certificate of deposit, a copy of which has heretofore been received in evidence and marked - Committee Exhibit No. 48 ", December 21, 1933, which exhibit you have already seen.

Mr. WILKIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. PECORA. Why was that to be a transaction of a few days' duration ?

Mr. WILKIN. I could not explain that.
Mr. PECORA. You know nothing about it?

Mr. WILKIN. No, sir. I knew that we were to get the deposit. It came unsolicited.

Mr. Pecora. How did you know you were to get the deposit?

Mr. WILKIN. Because we were called on the phone, like was the usual custom.

Mr. PECORA. What were you to do with the deposit?

Mr. WILKIN. We were to do just what we would do with any deposit. We reduced our bills payable by that amount.

Mr. PECORA. By the amount of $600,000?
Mr. WILKIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. PECORA. Was a statement of condition of the Union Industrial Bank of Flint made as of December 31, 1931 ?

Mr. Wilkin. It would have to be; yes, sir.

Mr. Pecora. Was it in that statement that the bills payable item was reduced by $600,000 as a result of this transaction?

Mr. Wilkix. I would think it would be; yes.

Mr. PECORA. Do you recall who signed that statement of condition or report?

Mr. Wilkin. I do not, but I think I signed most of the statements of condition. That is a routine matter.

Mr. PECORA. Do you recall having signed that particular one?
Mr. Wilkin. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. PECORA. You recall, however, the statement, do you not, that the item of “ Bills payable " was reduced by $600,000 as the result of this process ?

Mr. WILKIN. No; I may recall it by seeing the
Mr. PECORA. The exhibit?
Mr. WILKIN. Yes.

Mr. PECORA. Having your recollection so refreshed, do you now recall the whole transaction?

Mr. WILKIN. Yes, sir-no, sir: I don't recall the whole transaction. I know that these are our vouchers back of that. They are genuine.

Mr. Pecora. I am going to show you again the exhibits that have been received in evidence here as committee exhibits 98, 99, 100, and 101, respectively, as of this date. Two of them appear to be debit slips and two of them appear to be credit slips. Will you look at them and tell this committee for the record just what the effect and meaning and significance was of these four exhibits!

Mr. Wilkin. The first that I see is a charge ticket, charging the Guardian Detroit Bank with $600,000.

The second is a charge ticket to bills payable, charging $600,000.

The next is a credit ticket, crediting the demand certificates of deposit with $600,000.

This sindicating] is a credit ticket, crediting the Guardian Detroit Bank with $600,000.

Mr. PECORA. I show you what purports to be a photostatic reproduction of the report of condition of the Union Industrial Trust & Savings Bank of Flint as of December 31, 1931, and it bears upon its face a signature reading “ H. R. Wilkin.” Will you look at it and tell me if you recognize the handwriting of that signature as being your handwriting?

Mr. WILKIN. Yes, sir; that is mine.

Mr. PECORA. Look at it more closely and tell us if you recognize the entire document as being a true and correct copy of the report of condition of that bank as of December 31, 1931, signed by you. Mr. WILKIN. I would say

it

was; yes, sir. Mr. PECORA. Does that refresh your recollection that you signed this particular report?

Mr. Wilkin. No, sir; I signed hundreds of reports. Mr. PECORA. Looking at that document which you have just identified as a true and correct copy of the report and which contains the signature of H. R. Wilkin, which you say is in your handwriting, does that not serve to refresh your recollection as to the fact that you signed the original of that particular report?

Mr. WILKIN. I signed this report; yes, sir.
Mr. PECORA. I offer that copy of it in evidence.
Senator COUZENS. The same may be admitted.

(Photostatic copy of report of condition of Union Industrial Savings & Trust Co., Flint, Mich., of Dec. 31, 1931, was marked for identification, “ Committee Exhibit No. 103, Jan. 19, 1934.")

Senator COUZENS. What is the name of the secretary that appeared before the grand jury!

Mr. Wilkin. It was Strassler that appeared before the grand jury.
Senator COUZENS. Your secretary did not appear before it?
Mr. WILKIN. No, sir.

Senator COUZENS. And that is the man whom you have just inentioned who told you the questions he had been asked by the grand jury?

Mr. Wilkin. He told her. He has told me since, but he told her at that time.

Senator CouZENS. So he did tell you at some time the questions he had been asked by the grand jury?

Mr. WILKIN. Yes.
Senator COUZENS. Did he tell you his answers?
Mr. WILKIN. I don't remember that he did.

Mr. PECORA. He would not tell you the questions without telling you the answers, would he?

Mr. WILKIN. Just a moment. When the deputy sheriff came and took him out there Strassler was very familiar with Flint. Judge Black, who was conducting this grand jury, was one of the directors of the bank in which I worked. When he got to Flint they did not take him before the judge at all, but they questioned him. He was questioned by the deputy sheriff and the prosecutor in the sheriff's office.

Senator Coczens. Then he did not appear before the grand jury?
Mr. WILKIN. No, sir.
Senator COUZENS. You testified a while ago that he did.

Mr. Wilkin. To all intents he was taken there for that purpose, but he didn't get before the grand jury.

Mr. PECORA. I notice in this exhibit no. 103 of this date, which is a photostatic copy of the report of condition of the Flint bank as of December 31, 1931, that the amount of bills payable shown in this report as of that date is $1,500,000. Did you see that ?

Mr. WILKIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you remember what those bills payable were, the principal items?

Mr. WILKIN. It would be notes to other banks, Senator.
Mr. PECORA. What other banks?

Mr. Wilkin. Some to the Federal Reserve, some to the Guardian, and some, perhaps, in New York.

Mr. PECORA. I show you photostatic copies of two certain documents or statements on printed forms with typewritten figures thereon, both captioned “Union Industrial Trust & Savings Bank, Flint, Mich., General Journal Ledger and Statement of Condition." Will you look at them and tell me if you recognize them as being true and correct copies of the ledger sheets referred to?

Mr. Wilkin. I would say they are copies of those sheets; yes,
Mr. PECORA. I offer them in evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. They will be admitted.

(Photostatic copies of documents captioned “Union Industrial Trust & Savings Bank, Flint, Mich., General Journal Ledger and Statement of Condition", were received in evidence, marked for identification, respectively, “ Committee Exhibit No. 104, Jan. 19, 1934 ", and "Committee Exhibit No. 105, Jan. 19, 1934.")

Mr. PECORA. The first of these exhibits, the one marked “ Committee Exhibit No. 104” in evidence purports to be a copy of the general journal ledger and statement of condition of the Union Industrial Trust & Savings Bank, of Flint, Mich., as of Thursday, December 31, 1931, does it' not?.

Mr. WILKIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. PECORA. The second one of these exhibits, the one marked “ Committee Exhibit No. 105” of this date likewise purports to be, on its face, a copy of general journal ledger and statement of the condition of the same bank, of the same date, namely, Thursday, December 31, 1931, does it not? Mr. WILKIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. PECORA. What is the amount of bills payable and rediscounts shown on the general journal ledger and statement of condition marked in evidence as Committee Exhibit No. 104 "?

Mr. WILKIN. $2,100,000.

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