they were asked what kind of practice they wanted, returning from service, they voted that they wanted group practice, which is something that under the present system is not available to them, and I believe cannot be until we have some change in a big way and a change in the whole spirit. It is obvious that men that are already established must fear such a thing, and it is obvious that they must control the situation. That is why it was perhaps advantageous that this bill does not contemplate an immediate revolution in the method of practice but only opens the way to a change in method of practice that the youngsters can make. Senator DONNELL. Do you favor a revolution in the method of practice personally? Dr. PETERS. I think it must be changed if we are going to have the quality of care we require. And I think the fact that the medicine is more and more gravitating toward hospitals is one indication that we will have it. Senator DONNELL. Doctor, the two outstanding organizations in this country which have expressed themselves favorably to compulsory health insurance are your own committee, in behalf of which you are testifying this morning, and the physicians forum; is that correct? Dr. PETERS. Yes. Senator DONNELL. Of which Dr. Boas, who is also a member of the committee of your committee, for which you are appearing this morning, is president. He is president of the forum. That is correct, is it not? Dr. PETERS. Yes. Senator DONNELL. I asked you a little while ago and I know you said you could not tell us-the aggregate number of associations which have affirmatively approved compulsory health insurance. Would you say that, in your judgment, it would run as high as 10,000? Dr. PETERS. Well, what kind of organization? Senator DONNELL. Well, I should have qualified that. I meant any organization of physicians or surgeons, or both, would there be as many? I will put it this way: Are there associations of physicians and surgeons in this country, including the physicians' forum and your own committee, and any others, are there such organizations, the aggregate of membership of which would, in your opinion, be as great as 10,000, and who have expressed themselves by official action as favoring compulsory health insurance in this country? Dr. PETERS. By official action? You ask for my opinion? Dr. PETERS. My opinion is that there would be that many. Dr. PETERS. In my opinion-and it is only an opinion, and, therefore, I do not know just how much it is worth. I will say this: That at the end of these hearings I hope we will have a better basis for opinion. Senator DONNELL. The physicians' as I recall it-and I may be in error in this has 2,000 or 2,500 members, somewhere in there, possibly even less than that. Is that correct? Dr. PETERS. I do not know. Senator DONNELL. Are you a member of that organization? Dr. PETERS. I am not a member of that organization. Senator DONNELL. At any rate, the testimony of Dr. Boas tells us the membership, whatever it may be. Senator ELLENDER. If you will permit me, there were a thousand in that organization.. Senator DONNELL. Senator Ellender calls my attention to the fact that there were only 1,000. Senator ELLENDER. Six-hundred-and-some-odd came out of New York State and the rest are scattered throughout the country. Senator DONNELL. I remember that very distinctly, and I thank you for mentioning that. Do you know of any other organization of physicians and surgeons that you can give us the name of here this morning, other than the physicians' forum or the Committee of Physicians for the Improvement of Medical Care, which have taken any official action favorable to compulsory health insurance in this country? Dr. PETERS. Yes; but they are very small. Senator DONNELL. Could you give us their names? Dr. PETERSON. The committee of house physicians for the study of house care. Senator DONNELL. That is the one that you are here appearing for! Dr. PETERS. House physicians. Senator DONNELL. How large an organization is that? Dr. PETERS. I do not know at the present time. It is a very smal one. Senator DONNELL. A thousand? Dr. PETERS. Oh, no. Senator DONNELL. A hundred? Dr. PETERS. I do not think so. Senator DONNELL. Less than a hundred, you think; that is the committee of house physicians. What is the next one? By the way, where is that committee located? Dr. PETERS. In St. Louis. Senator DONNELL. St. Louis, Mo.? Dr. PETERS. Yes. Senator DONNELL. Who is the head of that? Dr. PETERS. Richard M. Peters. Senator DONNELL. Richard Peters? Dr. PETERS. That is a group of house physicians. Senator DONNELL. Is he related to you? Dr. PETERS. Yes. Senator DONNELL. What relationship? Dr. PETERS. My son. Senator DONNELL. That has less than a hundred? Dr. PETERS. I think so. Senator DONNELL. And when was it organized? Dr. PETERS. It is less than a year ago. Senator DONNELL. Was it organized to advocate the passage legislation of this kind? Dr. PETERS. It was organized as a study group first. You ask? for all of the organizations I know, and it is a small group of hoc physicians that is expanding, and I do not think it is of great s nificance except to show the spirit among the younger men. On the other hand, there are not organizations of that age group. They are not possible, any more than there are among the veteran groups and the other younger men. Senator DONNELL. Going back to the house physicians for a minute, in the first place, what is your son's address in St. Louis? Dr. PETERS. Barnes Hospital. Senator DONNELL. His first name is Richard? Dr. PETERS. Richard. Senator DONNELL. What are house physicians, in the hospital? Dr. PETERS. They are internes and residents. Senator DONNELL. Are they men who have gone out into the active practice as yet, or are they completing their course of study? Dr. PETERS. Completing the course of study. Senator DONNELL. And that is that organization. We have then the physicians forum and this committee for which you appear; the forum is constituted of a thousand members-as Senator Ellender points out-600 of whom are in New York State, and your organization that you appear for here this morning, with about 50 members, or I should say 1,500, who are in a sense associates, but the 50 are the active committee; is that right? Dr. PETERS. Yes. Senator DONNELL. So we have those two organizations. We will count that as 1,500 for your committee, so as to be perfectly fair on it. Then the house physicians have a maximum of 100. What other organizations of physicians or surgeon's in this country have passed official action favorable to compulsory health insurance? Dr. PETERS. It is not really an association of physicians and surgeons; there is a council, medical council, and a large medical group or division in the independent citizens committee which has favored it. Senator DONNELL. Where. Dr. PETERS. In the arts and sciences branch of the independent citizens committee of the arts, sciences, and professions. Senator DONNELL. That is the one of which Mr. Ickes is head? Senator DONNELL. I remember Frank Sinatra is in that. He is not a physician. Dr. PETERS. No; I say within that there is a division of physicians. Senator DONNELL. Yes. I did not mean any reflection on Mr. Sinatra in the slightest. Undoubtedly a man of great capacity in his profession, but he is not a physician is what I am getting at. Dr. PETERS. But there is a large group of physicians in their organized division. Senator DONNELL. How many are there? Dr. PETERS. You would have to inquire from the offices there. Senator DONNELL. My recollection, Doctor, subject of course to correction by either of these other gentlemen, is that the testimony of Dr. Butler or Mr. Ickes, one or the other, is about 200; one of them had seen them coming together in a meeting. Do you know whether there is a larger number of doctors than that? Dr. PETERS. There are more than that. Senator DONNELL. Are there 500? Dr. PETERS. I would have to get the figures from New York. 85907-46-pt. 2-30 Senator DONNELL. Do you think there are as many as 500 in tha committee of doctors, I should say? Dr. PETERS. I should suspect that. Senator DONNELL. You think that is a fair figure, an estimate 500? Dr. PETERS. Yes. Senator DONNELL. That is what we call the organization rep sented here by Mr. Ickes the other day. What other organization in this country that you know of, of phycians or surgeons has given official sanction to compulsory heaita surance? Dr. PETERS. I do not know of any. Senator DONNELL. You do not know of any others? Dr. Peters, taking your figure, first, the figure of 1,000 for: Physicians Forum, taking your own organization at 1,500, which I think is perfectly liberal, because the active, as I understand it n. or less active membership is much smaller, that is right, is it not? Dr. PETERS. It has to be in any organization. You cannot m 1,500 write a statement. Senator DONNELL. The actual operating membership of your ganization is only about 50, but I want to ask you what the other 1. do, we will come to that as an organization. But taking your organization as 1,500, the Forum so many, the Hồ Physicians of which your son is the head, and the medical componentthat enter into this organization of which Mr. Ickes is the head, we get a total of 3,100. That of course counts yours at 1,500. B me ask you about the 1,450 in your organization who are not incl » in this committee of 50. What do they do in connection with the aff of your organization? Dr. PETERS. They subscribe to our principles. That is not the of our mailing list. I am talking about the physicians in there. T subscribe to our principles and have asked for and receive the letSenator DONNELL. Are those 1,500 physicians? Dr. PETERS. I can not say whether somewhere between 1,400 1,500 at the present time. We are at a loss in two respects. One, > are getting new members, and the other is that servicemen are tur: 12 up that we thought were lost, and we cannot absolutely be sure v our list of servicemen is, but it is between 1,400 and 1,500. Senator DONNELL. And do those 1,400 to 1,500 men come toget in annual convention? Dr. PETERS. No. Senator DONNELL. Your convention consists of about 50, is ' right, sir? Dr. PETERS. Yes. Senator DONNELL. And that is the committee, generally speak:. the names of whom are upon this letterhead. Dr. PETERS. That is the committee. Senator DONNELL. Doctor, do these 1.400 or 1,500 people particip in committee memberships of your organization, or do they just scribe and get the benefit of information? us, Dr. PETERS. There is not any subscription. Senator DONNELL. How do they join? Dr. PETERS. They ask to join and state that they would sur and are interested in furthering our work. Senator DONNELL. Have you taken any poll of those people to see whether or not they approve statements 16, 15 and the other statement which has been filed here? Dr. PETERS. Except that we send them out and ask for their criticism. Senator DONNELL. Have you taken a poll of them to see whether they approve it? Dr. PETERS. No. Senator DONNELL. You have not? Dr. PETERS. We have in the past, as far as polls are concerned, the average gentleman, when he gets a poll like that is not going to sit down and write right back, and they are not very useful things. Besides that, we are an educational institution. We ask these people to support this. We claim nothing of them. They do say this, that they are supporting us and we have almost no withdrawals and do have an increasing number of requests. Senator DONNELL. But generally speaking, Doctor, they are not active in the actual preparation of statements. Dr. PETERS. They are active only in trying to get these statements spread further, and the news. We have by the way, although perhaps our regular mailing list, we have been called upon to send out 6,000 copies of our last Wagner-Murray-Dingell statement. I might say that it is utterly impossible, may I Senator DONNELL. Could I ask the Doctor one thing? Are these men in your organization, these 1,400 or 1,500, generally speaking, members of the American Medical Association? Dr. PETERS. Almost all of them. I cannot say, exactly. Senator DONNELL. The members of the AMA are about 125,000, in number, are they not? Is that right? Dr. PETERS. Yes. Senator DONNELL. That organization has come out expressly opposing compulsory health insurance; that is correct, is it not? Dr. PETERS. Yes. It has come out as an organization, and because it has allied itself with the National Physicians Committee, the possibility of organizing other groups of this kind that you have asked me about is greatly diminished. Men and youngsters especially cannot express themselves and organize such groups as long as the ability to get consultation, to have cases, and to get access to hospitals depends on conformity. Senator DONNELL. Was this statement 15 and statement 16 and the other statement, each of them, sent out to your entire membership for their criticisms before being put in final form? Dr. PETERS. You cannot have 1,500 people that will do that, any more than the AMA could send theirs out to 125,000. Senator DONNELL. In other words, these documents in their original draft form from you went out to about 50 people, is that right? Dr. PETERS. Yes. Senator DONNELL. Yes. And you got back their criticisms and tried to accommodate those various criticisms and you found in the case of two out of three documents that it was advisable to call together meetings. Dr. PETERS. We did not have to call it on that account. We called it because we thought the legislation was so important that we would not confine ourselves to simply handing out these statements for writ |