Senator DONNELL. I am not quite clear as to what the question was that was asked by Senator Aiken. May I ask Mr. Martin, does this report to which you have referred and which you have handed to the chairman, relate solely to the legal phases, or does it cover the entire field as it appeared and appealed to the American Bar Association? The CHAIRMAN. That is the prior bill? Senator DONNELL. That is S. 1161. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Senator AIKEN. I asked him if they had reported their position on the over-all objective of the bill also. Senator DONNELL. I did not understand whether you inquire whether this report related solely to the legal phases or the over-al picture. Mr. MARTIN. My answer to the Senator was "Yes," on all of the phases of the bill. Senator DONNELL. May I ask the witness a question. Mr. Marti would you be kind enough to state for the record your place of resi dence and your connection with the American Bar Association? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Senator. My residence is Birmingham, Ala.. and I am a practicing lawyer. Senator DONNELL. For how long have you practiced? Senator DONNELL. In Alabama? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. Senator DONNELL. And you have been a member of the America: Bar Association for quite a number of years? Mr. MARTIN. For 32 years. Senator DONNELL. Do you know what the approximate membership of the American Bar Association is? Mr. MARTIN. It is 35,000. Senator DONNELL. That is the largest in the history of the association? Mr. MARTIN. That is correct, Senator. Senator DONNELL. Mr. Martin, the document which you have of fered here this morning was a report or is a report presented to th American Bar Association by a committee of which Mr. W. E. Stanley. of Kansas is chairman, and you and Mr. Clement F. Robinson are tiother members? Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. Senator DONNELL. Relating to the general subject of Federal cortrol of medical practice; is that corect? Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. Senator DONNELL. And is so entitled at the top of the various pages of the report? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. Senator DONNELL. Now, Mr. Martin, did the house of delegates of the American Bar Association at the session held in Chicago on August 23 to 26, 1943, act upon this report? Mr. MARTIN. It did, Senator. Senator DONNELL. Is their action set forth in this pamphlet tha: you have given here? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Senator, on page 5. Senator DONNELL. That, Mr. Martin, is the resolution authorizing the appointment of the committee, is it not, rather than the action of the house of delegates on the report? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Senator, that is correct. Senator DONNELL. I call to your attention, Mr. Martin, at page 493 of the reports of the American Bar Association, being volume 69 for the year 1944, the following, and ask you to state whether or not this is the action taken by the house of delegates of the American Bar Association with respect to the report, and I quote: Resolved, That the report of the special committee to study and report on United States Senate bill 1161, relating to Federal control and regulation of medical practice and hospitalization, and the action of the board of governors thereon, is hereby adopted and approved, and may I also ask, Mr. Martin, before you answer the question, whether or not the recommendation of the board of governors in transmitting the report was as follows: Under directive of the resolution adopted by the house at the 1943 annual meeting, the board of governors considered and adopted the report of this committee and directed that copies be sent to each bar association represented in the house of delegates, to Members of the Congress of the United States, and that the report be released for general publication. I call your attention to that page from which I read and ask you to state whether that is the official action which it purports to be and which I have stated. Mr. MARTIN. That is correct, Senator, but the resolution was not carried out to the extent of sending the copies as indicated in the resolution, for the reason as I recall that there was no further action indicated on Senate 1161, and it was not necessary to send copies to Members of Congress. Senator DONNELL. Now, Mr. Martin, you have been a member of the American Bar Association as indicated for many years, and very active; have you not? Mr. MARTIN. To some extent; yes. Senator DONNELL. The American Bar Association was reorganized some 15 years ago; was it not? Mr. MARTIN. Ten years ago. Senator DONNELL. And in the course of the reorganization there was created a house of delegates which is the governing body of the association; that is correct; is it not? Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. Senator DONNELL. And the body which adopted the resolution which reads, referring to this report which you have submitted: Resolved, That the report of the special committee to study and report on United States Senate bill 1161 relating to Federal control and regulation of medical practice and hospitalization, and the action of the board of governors thereon is hereby adopted and approved, I say the body which acted upon that and passed that resolution is the house of delegates of the American Bar Association? Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. Senator DONNELL. That is the highest authority in the Bar Association which consists of some 35,000 members; is that correct? Mr. MARTIN. That is the sole authority when in session. Senator DONNELL. There is interim authority in the board of gov ernors? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. Senator DONNELL. But this action as indicated approves the action of the board of governors which was the interim body and expresses affirmatively the views of the house of delegates as the body which has the sole authority during the session of the association at Chicago. That is correct; is it not? Dr. MARTIN. That is correct. Senator AIKEN. I have got to leave for another important committee in 10 minutes, and I wonder if I could ask some questions before I go. I do not know much about the American Bar Association and its policies, but do I understand that the American Bar Association makes study of important pending legislation and reports to the house of delegates which takes action? Mr. MARTIN. Only in rare instances, Senator. It does not as a rule make studies of pending bills. Senator AIKEN. Well, for instance, did the association take any action on the Social Security Act in 1935? Mr. MARTIN. It did not. Senator AIKEN. Or the Minimum Wage Act of 1938? Mr. MARTIN. No. Senator AIKEN. And you have never taken any action on the oldage assistance programs? Mr. MARTIN. We have not. Senator AIKEN. Or unemployment compensation? Mr. MARTIN. No. Senator AIKEN. How did you happen to take up this national health matter? Is that considered more important than the others or more likely to lead to drastic change in democratic processes or undemocratic processes as maybe you call them? Mr. MARTIN. The origin of the resolution was this: Mr. Lloyd Wright, a lawyer of Los Angeles, introduced a resolution in the hous of delegates. Senator AIKEN. He is a lawyer, is he? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and a member of the house of delegates, from California. He called upon the board of governors to appoints committee for the purpose of studying this bill, S. 1161. The house adopted that resolution. The committee was appointed and it made the study, and reported back to the board of governors. The board of governors had no authority except to report to the house of dele gates, and did so. At the succeeding meeting in 1943, I believe, the house of delegates adopted the report recommended by the board of governors. Senator DONNELL. Was it not 1944?lgend ang Mr. MARTIN. I think so, I am wrong, it was 1944. Senator AIKEN. You and M committee that made the stur Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. Senator AIKEN. And " attorney, Mr. Wright, f Mr. MARTIN. That i Senator AIKEN. T was customary for Stanley and Mr. Robinson were th it to be wrong if you did make a study of all important proposed national legislation. Senator DONNELL. The resolution of Mr. Wright was considered and acted upon in 1943 as indicated on page 5 of the report which you have filed here; was it not? Mr. MARTIN. That is correct, Senator. Senator DONNELL. And those two resolutions which are there stated to have been adopted read as follows; do they not: Resolved, That the board of governors be requested to immediately appoint a special committee to study and analyze and investigate Senate bill 1161, and that the board of governors give publicity to the recommendations and findings of such special committee and the action of the board of governors thereon; be it further Resolved, That the house of delegates is opposed to any legislation, decree, or mandate that subjects the practice of medicine to Federal control and regulation beyond that presently imposed under the American system of free enterprise. Those resolutions were the ones that were adopted pursuant to the motion made by Mr. Wright; is that correct? Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. Senator DONNELL. Was the adoption of those resolutions after a debate, or do you recall? Mr. MARTIN. I do not recall the debate in 1943. Senator DONNELL. Was there a debate in 1944 when your report came in? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. Senator DONNELL. Would you tell us, briefly, not the contents of it, but whether or not it was in your judgment as a lawyer, a thorough and comprehensive debate upon the subject? Mr. MARTIN. It was. May I say this: It was proposed by the chairman of the committee, Mr. Stanley, who explained the report, and it was opposed by Mr. Charles M. Hay, of St. Louis, who at the time was counsel, as I recall, for the National Labor Relations Board, I think, or the War Manpower Commission, Mr. Bastian corrects me. He debated the question quite vigorously and very ably. Senator DONNELL. May I interrupt to say this and to ask Mr. Martin this question, because it flows from a personal friendship and acquaintance with Mr. Hay over many years. He has passed on recently. Mr. Hay was one of the most able debaters generally so considered in the American Bar Association, is that correct? Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. Senator DONNELL. And he presented the side favorable to the idea of S. 1161? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. Senator DONNELL. And the debate ensued and others participated on the other side? Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. Senator DONNELL. And as a result of that debate, the resolutions which I have read from page 493 of the report, Volume 69, 1944, were adopted? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. Senator DONNELL. Would you be kind enough to state in the record how large a body this house of delegates is? Mr. MARTIN. It is over 200 members. Senator DONNELL. Generally speaking, how is it created? I mean how are the members of it selected? Mr. MARTIN. In the house there is one member called the State delegate who is elected by each State. He is elected by the member of the American Bar Association in his State. There are also repr sentatives of the State bar associations. Each State bar association selects according to its own practice its representative in the hou of delegates. In addition, each local bar association which has in excess of 500 members is entitled to a representative. Then, there are various governmental officers who are members of the house of delegates, such as the Attorney General, the Solicitor General. Senator DONNELL. You mean the Attorney General of the United States and the Solicitor General of the United States? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; and the president of the Association of Attor neys General, and many others; also the president of the America: Law Institute. Senator DONNELL. The American Law Institute is the body which undertook some years ago, beginning here in Washington, the restatement of the law in a monumental work which has proved of great importance to the profession, is that correct? Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. It has tended to simplify importar principles of law. Senator DONNELL. Mr. Martin, would you state generally the typ of investigation that your committee, consisting of yourself, Mr Robinson, and as chairman, Mr. Stanley, of Kansas, undertook a:.: performed in the preparation of this report which you have offere before the committee this morning? Mr. MARTIN. Each member of the committee made a study separately, they being separated by great distances in the country. Senator DONNELL. Where did Mr. Robinson live? Mr. MARTIN. In Maine, and Mr. Stanley in Kansas. At a meeting of the board of governors, I think in January of 1944, the con mittee met in advance of the meeting of the board for the purpose discussing this report. That was for some two days. We discusse it at length and agreed on our report to the board of governors. Whad done considerable work. I had done considerable work in undertaking to analyze the bill from a factual standpoint to try to ascer tain what it meant, if that were possible. Then, we made investigations as to the extent of Blue Cross plans in this country, and we made surveys of medical literature to undertake to secure some facts or background on which we could base report, because, naturally, as lawyers we were not so familiar with the medical profession nor the extent of medical service in this country. And after these investigations, we met and adopted a report which we recommended. Senator DONNELL. In response to a question from Senator Aike as to whether or not it is customary for the American Bar Association. to investigate matters of general public interest, I believe you men tioned or responded that it is the exception or is unusual for them to do so. Mr. MARTIN. It is unusual. Senator DONNELL. Only in matters reflecting great public intere! and of great outstanding public importance, is that correct? Mr. MARTIN. Yes; and I may add that the philosophy of this u dertaking, this scheme appeared to us to be so foreign to our form of |