or more than double, and yet we were always able to get lumber from the West at the same price we could get it from the South. That is absolutely a fact that can be given in actual figures and bills.

Mr. GWINN. Well, I think we had better get to some figures we can agree upon.

Secretary TOBIN. Well, I can tell you truthfully, in many areas in this country, any increased wage in the lumber business will have no bearing on that.

Mr. BARDEN. I think I have handled and taken part in the production of more lumber than most anyone, even at 80 cents per day.

Secretary TOBIN. I am very happy for you in the last 3 years, Mr. Barden.

Mr. LESINSKI. I think you are going to get into an argument. I used to handle a hundred cars a month.

Mr. BARDEN. You did that sitting behind a glass-top desk. You are speaking in general terms about something you know so little about. You are making comparison in lumber in the West and South. Secretary TOBIN. I didn't mention any area. I mentioned no area in the country.

Mr. BARDEN. You just nodded your head when the chairman was talking. There is quite a difference, Mr. Secretary, when you cut down a tree that has anywhere from 1,500 to 3,000 feet, and you roll a log into the mill and a gangsaw hits it, and you have at least 500 feet rolling out at a time, and when you have to go into the swamp with a pair of mules or a pair of oxen and drag out a little log that has 80 feet in it. You have to handle it just as much and carry it just as far, and you have to handle it with hand labor instead of the log skid and machinery they have in the West, so you are not giving a good picture until you describe the type of operation that is carried on. I have handled more receiverships for lumber companies and sawmills than any kind of receivership I know of, when I was practicing law. So the fellow that can always see the brightest spot in business is the fellow that is looking at the other fellow's business.

Secretary TOBIN. Since OPA went off-for all practical purposes, on the 30th day of June 1946-the prices of lumber have gone up a couple of hundred percent, and I would like to say the cost of living at the same time went up 30 percent, at the moment, and factory wages have only gone up 26 percent.

Mr. GWINN. Let's see if we cannot confine ourselves to answering the question, because I would like for some of the employers of labor, and labor itself, to have a chance to come here and tell their stories.

You just said a lot of these raw lumber manufacturers were working at 50 cents an hour.

Secretary TOBIN. I haven't stated that. I am not sure what the wage is.

Mr. GWINN. Didn't somebody say that?

Secretary TOBIN. I said the difference between 40 and 75 cents, that would be the margin.

Mr. GWINN. Let's take roughly a 20-percent raise in wages in some categories, we will say.

Mr. WEISS. There would be no industry that would be affected to

that extent.

Mr. GWINN. What are we talking about here, then?

Secretary TOBIN. A lot of people would be getting over the 75 cents an hour.

Mr. GWINN. If there is nobody getting less than 75 cents

Mr. WEISS. There are 1,500,000 workers, but they are at the lower end of the scale.

Mr. GWINN. To the extent that wages are raised in manufacturing of lumber and in manufacturing of furniture, that would raise, correspondingly, the sale price; would it not?

Secretary TOBIN. I can't tell you what the retail sales outlets would be, or at what they are going to sell it, but I will certainly bring to you the percentage increase in the industries that you mentioned.

Mr. GWINN. Isn't it reasonable if you raise these wages that you correspondingly increase the retail price?

Secretary TOBIN. Not necessarily.

Mr. GWINN. Substantially?

Secretary TOBIN. There is bound to be an increase in cost of production, definitely; that is a basic principle.

Mr. GWINN. That would be all along in the manufacturing, in the furniture factory itself?

Secretary TOBIN. Mr. Gwinn, without good sound premises, I can't come to sound answers, and I think it would be better if you let me make a study, and I will attempt to give it to you.

Mr. GWINN. We do not have time to study.

Mr. BAILEY. Did it ever occur to the gentleman that a large part of this increased wage might be absorbed in the $20,000,000 profit made by the industry in 1948?

Mr. GWINN. That is what I wanted the Secretary to say if he wants to say that.

Secretary TOBIN. What you are looking for is what would be the increased cost of production from a wage point of view in the furniture industry, and I will have the answer for you in a few days.

Mr. GWINN. Do you admit the profit in furniture business is not sufficient to absorb the increase in wages?

Secretary TOBIN. I wouldn't be able to answer that, Mr. Gwinn. I am not in a position to answer. I would have to have a set of books of a group of manufacturers before I would be able to answer the question. Mr. GWINN. You are not advocating a raise in wages without regard to the effect it is going to have on the consumer?

Secretary TOBIN. That would be developed by the process of supply and demand. We have a free economy in this country.

Mr. GWINN. What is this legislation going to do to economy? Secretary TOBIN. I hope you will not have to go back to the time before, when we regulated railroads and gas companies.

Mr. GWINN. Have we a free country when the Central Government enacts a law controlling and dictating prices?

Secretary TOBIN. It is a free economy as long as they enact the laws, and I feel they are enacting good laws.

Mr. GWINN. It isn't a question of whether it is good or bad; the question is, Who controls our economy? Does the free individual control it or the Government control it? Now you ask that the Government control it, and you call that free economy; is that right?

Secretary TOBIN. I consider any enactment of the representatives of the people of the United States to be an act that you can call freedom.

Mr. GWINN. Now, if you raised these wages to $1.50, do you think that would increase the cost to the consumer?

Secretary TOBIN. I don't believe the economy could stand such an increase.

Mr. GWINN. What grounds do you have to suppose that 75 cents can be stood?

Secretary TOBIN. I have explained to you the increased cost of living between 1938 and 1949 represents the difference between 40 cents and the 75 cents we are recommending here, and a 40-cent purchasing power as of 1949.

Mr. GWINN. Now, in case of a depression there is nothing in your proposal by which we can reduce

Secretary TOBIN. Yes, there is-industry committees. The wage can be elevated to as high as a dollar in given industries, and the industry committees can reduce them to a floor of 75 cents.

Mr. GWINN. They cannot go below that?

Secretary TOBIN. That is up to you and the other Members of the Congress if such a situation should arise.

Mr. GWINN. Suppose we get into a depression and men and women are thrown out of work, and then they cannot work at all under this bill for less than 75 cents, and it does not make any difference what the price level sinks to; is that right?

Secretary TOBIN. If you enact this law you are establishing another policy for the country against any depressions.

Mr. GWINN. Can you or can you not reduce the wages if we get into a depression?

Secretary TOBIN. Not below 75 cents until Congress acts.

Mr. GWINN. So if the consumer quits buying furniture, for example, at that price level, which is arbitrarily fixed by the Government, then the worker must go on the unemployment list; is that right?

Secretary TOBIN. I have a confidence we are never going to see a real depression in this country again, if we have learned anything from the experiences of the past.

Mr. GWINN. Your confidence is unbelievable. I wish you could give us all a certificate to that effect. I asked you a simple question: If a depression comes and the price level falls below 75 cents and the consumer quits buying furniture at that level, the worker is thrown. out of employment, is he not?

Secretary TOBIN. If you have a depression and the consumer ceases to buy furniture, naturally there is no employment for the worker. Mr. GWINN. And he cannot work any place for less than 75 cents? Secretary TOBIN. That is a problem for the Congress. If we come to that day and I am Secretary of Labor, I will have recommendations to make to the Congress; and no doubt you will have ideas of your

own.

Mr. GWINN. We are not always in session.

Now, if the individual is out of work and, by law, he is prevented from working for less than 75 cents, he will go on the unemployment rolls on the relief rolls?

Secretary TOBIN. He would naturally go on the unemployment rolls, and for a period of 26 weeks in most States he would have some money with which to support his family, which again will be a contributing factor in preventing a depression.

Mr. GWINN. And when he goes on the relief rolls, of course, the taxpayers pay the bills for unemployment that is arbitrarily brought about?

Secretary TOBIN. You mean a depression arbitrarily brought about by this act?

Mr. GWINN. I say, if the depression comes and prices fall, the person on the relief rolls is supported by the general taxpayer? Secretary TOBIN. I have lived through it. I have been a mayor of a city, and I have seen it.

Mr. GWINN. I assumed that is so.

Secretary TOBIN. Congress, in its good judgment, has seen fit to buy insurance policies against such situations, and you have unemployment insurance to take care of those conditions now, and to save workers from being objects of public charity.

Mr. GWINN. You would not be here at all if you were not talking for the submarginal worker or the person who finds it difficult to find employment; is not that so?

Secretary TOBIN. No.

Mr. GWINN. You are trying to protect the person in the lower scale of productivity and earning power, are you not?

Secretary TOBIN. I am trying to help the whole economy in the United States and in the process of it give to the Americans a decent living wage.

Mr. GWINN. You want to help the 1,500,000 who are below 75 cents now?

Secretary TOBIN. Correct.

Mr. GWINN. And you say that businessmen are so bad and selfish that the law

Secretary TOBIN. I have never made a criticism of the businessmen here at all. I have complete respect for America's businessmen.

Mr. GWINN. You made comments on men who sweatshop their workers.

Secretary TOBIN. A sweatshop operator hasn't even the respect of his own competitors.

Mr. GWINN. You are trying to make a law because certain persons. do not pay what they ought to pay; are you not?

Secretary TOBIN. Correct.

Mr. GWINN. Then we do reflect on the individual American who pays less than he should, or less than the Department of Labor thinks he should?

Secretary TOBIN. It will be what the Congress of the United States thinks he should pay, after proper hearings and an opportunity to listen to all segments of our economy.

Mr. GWINN. The submarginal worker will be the first one to be thrown out of employment in case of depression?

Secretary TOBIN. Do you object to helping the lower-paid employees of the United States?

Mr. GWINN. I am asking you if you want to throw the people on relief rolls.

Secretary TOBIN. I certainly do not want to do that.

Mr. GWINN. That is where they will go.

Secretary TOBIN. That is what I said; that is where they would go. Mr. GWINN. We all want to get employment. We are talking about the people who would be thrown out of employment because somebody

cannot pay the wages and the consumer cannot pay the prices, and that is the group that will suffer first; will they not?

Mr. IRVING. During the last depression there were a number of doctors, dentists, and members of other professions on the relief rolls.

Secretary TOBIN. As mayor of Boston, I knew of more than a hundred dentists who were on the relief rolls there.

Mr. IRVING. It was not because they were unskilled in their professions; it was because nobody could pay them.

Mr. LESINSKI. After Mr. Gwinn has finished his questions, we will adjourn; and at 2 o'clock we will meet in the large caucus room.

Mr. GWINN. If people are thrown out of employment because of the inability of the consumer to pay the arbitrary wage, that increases suffering; does it not?

Secretary TOBIN. It would be up to the industry committees to establish wage rates between the 75 cents and the dollar that industry can afford to pay; and, in the event that it gets to a point where 75 cents is too high, then I should think Congress would act on it.

Mr. GWINN. Now, you say that industry can afford to do that, and we have again a manifestation of the Government substituting its judgment for industry.

Secretary TOBIN. No; industry committees will make that judgment. Mr. GWINN. But that is Government determining what is right and wrong; isn't it?

Secretary TOBIN. It is a general situation of Government with industry representatives, employee representatives, and the public representatives, making a determination as to a wage that a given industry can afford to pay.

This might help you, Mr. Gwinn: Two-thirds of all the wage rates that have been established by these committees have had unanimous votes on the part of the public, the employees, and employers.

Mr. GWINN. There is no particular reason, as I understand, why controls and regulations and fixing by Government of prices of workers would act any differently from fixing the prices through OPA on grain or on clothing or on any other commodity.

Secretary TOBIN. That is where our philosophy differs. I do not place human beings in the category of commodities.

Mr. GWINN. I asked you if there is any difference on prices on economy between fixing and regulating, which you now propose, on wages and fixing prices on any other item, rent or clothing.

Secretary TOBIN. That was decided in 1938. The principle has been established, and it has been on the books for 11 years.

Mr. GWINN. Is there any difference in our economy between fixing prices in one category and any other category?

Secretary TOBIN. The distinction is that in one instance you are dealing with human beings, and in the other instance you are dealing with commodities. We have public-health authorities to take care of the health of people.

Mr. GWINN. I am talking about furniture, now, and the things that labor makes. Is there any difference between fixing prices on one. item and fixing prices under general OPA, on the economy-not on persons? That is another subject.

Mr. PERKINS. I am just wondering from this questioning whether You are advocating that we should go ahead with the minimum wage that we enacted in 1938 under our present economy.