stand by those landmarks, for I do not want in | down any great measure, they always refer us after years to have some surveyor go hunting up landmarks for me.

The doctrine I set out with is that which I mean to maintain, that the people have a right to govern, and ought to govern in this free country. That is where I stood, sir, twenty three years ago; and if the people of the state will be consistent, and upon sober reflection just alter the tenure of office of the judges, and uphold in their elections the removal by a bare majority, they will have a system which I doubt not will work better than the present.

I do not wish to be understood as being opposed to an elective judiciary. I only throw this out for the benefit of gentlemen who may not have known my position heretofore; and I intend to occupy that position so long as I have any thing to do with public life.

to the manner in which the governments of antiquity have all run the road to ruin. The free governments of Rome and Athens are pointed out, as an index, as a beacon light to show us where the rocks and quicksands are situated. Well. I have read some little myself in Dilworth's spelling book, but I do not think that I ever saw in all my reading, any description of a government that comes up to my idea of a free government, except our own. And when a gentleman comes here, like the gentleman from Kenton, who is on his first legs, or like my honorable friend from Louisville, when the lobbies are crowded with ladies, they like to talk about Greece and Rome, and make a display of their learning. I don't wish to make any display. I think even if my wife were to die and there was ever so much attraction in the lobbies It all goes back to this; every argument that I take that back,-Mr. Chairman; but a great I have heard from able, learned, and talented many men certainly do come here to extinguish gentlemen here, runs right back to the old doc-themselves. [Irrepressible laughter throughout trine of monarchists, that the people are not ca- the house, as well as much merriment in the pable of self-government. You may govern your-galleries, was elicited by the quaintness of the selves say they, but we will throw restrictions honorable delegate.] But I never saw anything around you, for you may be led away by dema- in this Greece and Rome business to alarm me. gogues, and not form a correct judgment. And I have no doubt there are some gentlemen who my friend from Kenton gave as an instance, that know more about those countries than I do; I at some future day the democratic party might never was there, and never expect to go there; have a majority! Great God! that I should throw and never having read more than Dilworth's out such an insinuation in regard to the party spelling book, I never expect to know more of to which I belong; that the great democratic them than I shall hear in oratorical displays in party is so steeped in iniquity and immorality this house. I had thought, however, or perthat they would be guilty of such scoundrelism; haps dreamed that free governments always that a period could arrive in this country, when, fell from the fact that a few men get into power, for mere party purposes, a democratic majority whether by demagoguery or not, and by degrees of the legislature would turn out a judge. Great destroyed the foundations of the government, and God Almighty! if I belonged to a party who stole away the liberties of the people. I may be would act thus, I would turn my back upon them wrong. But, sir, it is a very favorite topic. If in five minutes, and never unite with them again gentlemen want to break down measures which on the face of the earth. a few men like myself advocate, in order to give strength to the other side of the question, they cry out demagougery-demagougism. Well, I have no idea that any gentleman who has used this expression has tried to give it point towards any member of this body.

Mr. STEVENSON. I did not speak of the democratic party. I said that gentlemen who came here professing to be democrats, might disregard the popular voice when they get here. There have been gentlemen who professed one thing on the stump, and pursued a different course when they came here."

I am determined, as far as my action is concerned to preserve the great land mark, that a Mr. NUTTALL. Well I think that may be majority shall rule, and I do not fear that the applicable to the gentleman from Kenton, but I constituents of any man in this country, in this know it is not to me. I go upon the principle, enlightened age, ever can or will be influenced that our constituents throughout the length and by demagogues, first to elect an improper perbreadth of this great and patriotic state are en- son as judge, and then to elect a man to the lightened men. I dare any gentleman to go legislature who is incompetent to determine home and take the stump and say there are men whether the judge has committed an offence for living at the seat of government who under- which he ought to be removed. I do say sir, stand these matters better than you do; men who that it is underrating the intelligence of the can form a correct judgment in relation to the people; it is not a proper appreciation of their affairs of government, whilst you who live in general intelligence to say that any state of seclusion, who know nothing of the refinements things, in this our day, can arise, in which the of city life, who have never heard the tones of a people can be misled; because if they suffer piano, or seen tables groaning under loads of themselves to be deceived it is they who must sweet-meats, are not capable of forming an suffer the ill consequences resulting therefrom. opinion. I do not pretend to much refinement But I do humbly conceive from the fact that all myself; I am one of the people, a demagogue, if the important officers of the government are to you please, but sometimes, when I meet before be elected by the people, that they will be cauthe people men who have considerable pretentious, that they will act with judgment, and sion on the score of attainments, I do assure you I make their hair stand on end. But sir, I have read an old adage which I will give you presently. When a set of gentlemen want to put

certainly not permit themselves to elect to important offices, such persons as are incapable of administering the government. I think they will at all times rise superior to the charge

which gentlemen have seen fit to throw out against them. That is my doctrine.

I do not know how much I am influenced by what may be laid up at home against a man, for his acts in this convention; but in very few words, in conclusion, I will give you my opinion as to what we ought to do. And first, I will say that if this amendment does not succeed, I am still with the convention party. I am going for the amendment in good faith, and whether successful or not in this, I am still going for other amendments in the constitution; and if we can fix up a constitution that will suit a majority of this house, my signature shall be attached to it, whether I coincide in the amendments that are made or not. I intend to be consistent. Al

this convention, all our institutions will be overturned, and the legislative department of our government will, as has been frequently stated by gentlemen on this floor, be the great fish which is to swallow up all the other departments. I know that the argument made by the venerable gentleman from Nelson was well calculated to lead us astray; it was well calculated to deceive the unwary; and at the first blush might be supposed to carry with it a power, which in reality it did not posses. Ah! sir, it was like a bed of beautiful roses, inviting to the eye, but it contained within it an asp, and if we lay our hand upon it the poison of the asp will be felt.

It is attempted to be maintained that the legthough my own notions may not meet the views islature are the people themselves. I ask you to of a majority here, yet if you secure the great look back for a few years at the action of our object for which we have asembled by forming legislature, and then say if the people, regarding a constitution that will be acceptable to a majori- the legislature as the people, are capable of selfty, I am with you. When you secure an elec-government. I say the position cannot be maintive judiciary, and secure to the people the elec-tained, if we take the action of the legislature tion of all the other officers of the government, for the action of the people themselves. What you will have effected one of the great objects is the fact? One year the legislature is here aswhich the people had in view in ordering this sembled, engaged in enacting laws by which the convention. If only this shall be accomplish- commonwealth is to be governed. They return ed, I shall vote for the new constitution. I do to their constituents; and, as remarked by the not know how long my friend from Nelson and gentleman from Kenton, it frequently happens, myself will continue to vote together. I sup- that not one-third of those who were engaged in pose that if his amendment should be rejected, enacting those laws, are returned to the next he will part from most of his old friends, by legislature. Their constituents say to them, you putting himself in opposition to any constitu- have not been good and faithful servants; we tion that may be made. must elect those who will carry out our views.

I believe I have said all that I designed to say, and perhaps more than I ought to have said. As the preacher says in winding up his sermon, if anything has been said that is out of the way, I hope the house [I will not call upon the Lord, for I am not good enough for that,] will have mercy upon me.

One of the great disadvantages of a republican government is, that we have to delegate our authority. We are here representing the people of Kentucky, but are we the people? No sir, we are acting with delegated authority. If we do their will, we shall receive their approbation, and our work will be sustained by an overwhelmMr. MACHEN. I do not rise, sir, with a viewing power in the commonwealth. But is it not of detaining this house, or of attempting to ena fact, that the people from one end of this great lighten it, by presenting this subject in any commonwealth to the other, have looked and are new light. I feel it due to myself, however, and still looking upon our action here with great to those whom I represent, to give a reason for jealousy? That is from the fact that our power the action which I shall take, when we have the is delegated to us; that they have entrusted to the privilege of attempting to dispose of the action of a few men, the interests of this great question which has been under discussion. I have commonwealth. seen sir, heretofore in this house, the shafts of The gentleman who was last up presented this ridicule attempted to be hurled, where there was to my mind in rather a startling point of view. no argument to sustain the position which the par- He says that his voice is for maintaining the sovty was endeavoring to advocate. But sir, the ereignty of the people; that he has full confishafts of ridicule, I trust, will always fall harm-dence in their capacity for self-g -government.less upon the ear of every speaker in this convention. We are here for high and important purposes; and I conceive that the action of this convention upon the question which is now before it, has a great deal to do in carrying out those purposes for which we are here assembled. I, sír, claim to be as fully initiated in the spirit of democracy as any man upon this floor. I claim to have gone as far in all my past history, in endeavoring to sustain those great principles,

which I believe lie at the foundation of all republican governments as any man on this floor. But sir, for the first time in my short existence have I learned that the representatives of the people assembled here, constitute the people themselves. It is a new doctrine to me; and sir, I conceive it to be fraught with error which is so fundamental, that if sustained by the action of

And how does he demonstrate this? He says he believes that the power to elect the judiciary ought not to be entrusted to their hands. What was it that led him to this conclusion? He says that the people will demonstrate their imbecility; that when the election of the officers of government is thrown upon the people, their imbecility will be demonstrated in their action. I believe that the people have the capacity to elect any of the officers of the government.

Mr. NUTTALL. I wish to be distinctly understood in regard to this matter, because it is to be a matter of record. The ground which I took before my constituents, and which I take now is, that the people are qualified to elect every officer of the government, from the president down to a constable; but that in the case of a judge, though the people are not disqualified to

elect him, yet from the fact of his receiving his appointment in that way, it operates as a disqualification upon him. That is the ground I take.

hands of the legislature? Why, the proposition came from the committee on the judiciary. If that department is not the proper tribunal to exercise this power, why did you propose it? why Mr. MACHEN. I understand then, that the did you not propose some other, if the legisla spirit of the proposition which I made has not ture is not to be trusted? This power has existbeen controverted. If, sir, the exercise of the ed in the legislative department of the governpower that is here intended, as I trust, to be ment from the year 1792 under the old constituplaced in the hands of the people, is to operate tion and under the present constitution up to as a disqualification of those who are to carry this hour; and I call upon gentlemen to point on the operations of the government, I affirm out an instance when this two third power has that according to any system of reasoning with ever been carried into effect. Sir, it has remainwhich I am acquainted, it must result in a dis-ed a dead letter in both the old and the present qualification of the people themselves to control constitution. What is the effect of it? Suppose the government. Now, what is to be the effect the legislature is liable to all the improper inof the adoption of this principle? The gentle- fluences suggested by gentlemen. There are man from Nelson has clearly indicated that he one hundred and thirty eight men in the two intends that the principle shall extend to all the houses. A judge is brought before them for officers of the government, from the governor malfeasance in office. Ninety one say that he down to a constable. What will be the condi-is guilty, and forty seven say he is not. How tion of the governor under such a system? The does the rule operate? Why, according to the legislature meets and passes a law, which on proposition of those who advocate the two thirds account of a constitutional objection, the gov-system the forty seven are to rule the ninety one. ernor is compelled to return to them without his Is this republicanism? I say it is not. Are not sanction. What will be the action of that body? the forty seven more liable to improper influenThey will say, "sir, you have stepped in between ces than the ninety one? Most undoubtedly. the rights of the people and the interests of those Sir, the same argument that I have heard urged for whose benefit the law was passed; you shall in favor of this two thirds rule I have heard no longer be governor." And what is to be the urged against the election of the judges by the remedy? Ah, gentlemen say, go back to your people. I have no doubt if you take the vote constituents and defend your conduct. Will of the judges on the subject the two thirds rule that restore the governor to his position? Will will be adopted; but if you carry it to the peothat secure you against the evils which are inci-ple they will decide that a majority shall rule. dent to such a power in the legislative department? No, sir, it will not do it.

On motion of Mr. R. N. WICKLIFFE, the committee rose, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.

The convention then adjourned.

That is the principle that should be carried through every department of the government. I did not intend when I rose, to detain the If the legislature is not the proper department house as long as I have. I have not attempted to be entrusted with this power, then select some to arrange what few ideas I entertain on the sub-other; but if it is the department that is to exject, in any thing like a correct form. I know ercise the power, then let the republican princithat upon my tongue there is no syren sound, ple apply, that a majority shall rule. that is calculated to attract those who listen long. I have lived long enough, however, to feel that this is one of those important principles upon which will depend the good order, or the confusion, attendant upon the operations of the government. It is important, if you would secure harmony and good order, that each department of the government should be kept separate, and made to feel its independence. There are many ways in which, if this principle be carried out, it will operate injuriously to the interests of the people. It is not necessary to specify them; the intellectual vision of gentlemen will readily suggest them. I shall vote against the motion to strike out, for it is my firm conviction that the power here contemplated to be given to a majority should never be exercised, unless two-thirds at least of the assembled wisdom of the state pronounce in favor of it, and this is what the people will sanction.

FRIDAY, OCTOBER 19, 1849.
Prayer by the Rev. Mr. ROBINSON.

EVENING SESSIONS.

Mr. PROCTOR submitted a resolution, as follows:

Resolved, That after Monday next this convention will hold a morning and an evening session, the evening session to commence each day at 3 o'clock.

He said he did not deem it necessary to say Mr. THOMPSON. The proposition before any thing in favor of this resolution. It was the committee is this: whether, when a judge is well known to the whole country that one of the brought before the legislature, it shall require objects in calling this convention was, that there a vote of two thirds to remove him, or the vote should be economy secured in the expendiof a bare majority. Now who is it that pro-tures of the state. This convention had already proses this tribunal to remove a judge? From spent much time in the discussion of abstract the arguments that I have heard here, I appre-principles which had been well settled in the prihend it is supposed that the legislature is sub-inary assemblies of the people. He hoped the ject to all the improper influences that can be brought to bear upon man. Who is it that proposes that this power shall be placed in the

convention would adopt the resolution, that they might be enabled to do the business for the state of Kentucky, to do which the people had

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sent them here. On the resolution he called for 1 the yeas and nays.

Mr. BOYD suggested an amendment, so as to provide that the morning session should commence at 9 o'clock.

Mr. PROCTOR accepted the amendment, and the resolution, as amended, was as follows:

Resolved, That after Monday next the convention will hold a morning and evening sessionthe morning session to commence each day at 9 o'clock and the evening session at 3 o'clock.

Mr. HARDIN remarked that it had been suggested to him that the three committees on the various branches of the judiciary-the court of appeals, the circuit courts, and the county courts

All came here for that object, and all seemed to concur on several of the prominent principles that were to be acted upon by this convention. He hoped they would harmo nize, and the result be, that they would give to God bless the people such a constitution as that generations for time to come would say, the convention of 1849."

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should, after they had finished their several labors, have a joint meeting for the purpose of attempting to unite upon some harmonious system as a whole. The reports as they now stood, did not harmonize. He thought it a very sensithe judiciary ble suggestion and hoped it would be acted upon, and that the discussion on Mr. IRWIN was as desirous to secure econo- should cease until the result of that action was my as any gentleman on this floor, and he was known. All he desired was to secure that haras anxious that they should get through the la-monious action which would produce the best bors which devolved upon them here. He was possible system. anxious to return to his own business, which required his attention, but the people of the state of Kentucky had entrusted to them the important duty of making a constitution under which they were hereafter to be governed, and so important a work should not be done in a hurry. It was not only necessary to do their work, but to do it well, and thus to guard against some of the consequences of unnecessary haste. And what was the state of things here? Why, from several committees, the convention had, as yet, received no report. These committees were in session daily, and their hour of meeting was three o'clock. How then could they meet here at three o'clock, without interfering with their business, in the committee room, on which the progress of business in the convention so much depended? The committee on contested elections would meet to-day at three o'clock, which many members of the convention were desirous to attend. This was a fact which would show the convention that all its business was not confined to this hall; and he was well satisfied that it was too early a period to adopt the resolution which had been just offered.

Mr. PROCTOR was as anxious as any one that full time and deliberation should be allowed in the performance of the labors of the convention, but from his observation of the proceedings, he thought his proposition would af ford ample time to the committees for any such purpose.

If every subject was to be discussed to the extent which those under consideration had been, he did not believe they would get through their labors until after Christmas, unless the convention sat more hours daily. In calling for the ayes and noes his object was not to influence any gentleman in his vote, and he presumed the call would exert no such influence. As gentlemen of more experience than himself seemed to regard it as the best plan, he had no objection to the suggestion of the gentleman from Nelson (Mr. Wickliffe.)

Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE said that the suggesWith respect to the call for the yeas and nays, which he presumed was to affect individuals at tion to which his colleague had referred was home, by showing that certain delegates were based upon the idea that the great principles upmore anxious than others to secure economy in the be organized, should be first determined by a expenditures of the State, he would merely ob- on which this new system of a judiciary was to serve that he was not thereby to be driven from harmonize so far as its details were concerned. lieved to be right. No effect to be produced by He did not wish to be understood as desiring that giving such a vote as in his judgment he be-vote of the house. The committees could then it hereafter would change his course of action, the committees in joint meeting should settle when he conscientiously believed that evening sessions at this time would rather retard than fa- upon the principles, because it would be no final While he cilitate the business of the convention. He real-determination if they did, as the matter would the resolution would be postponed. ly thought that the resolution ought not to be still have to be decided in the house. He hoped was willing to second all efforts to further the idopted. Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE thought he should be business of the house, he did not want to act prepared to vote for this resolution a week hence, hastily on a work of so important a character as but at present there were some two or three stand-this. It was not like the ordinary legislation of ing committees which had made no reports. this country which could undo on one day what These committees met at three o'clock in the af- had been done the day preceding. ternoon, but in the course of a week he thought they would be prepared to devote more time to business in convention. If he had any particular reputation it was that of being a laborious and industrious man; and he was as anxious as any gentleman to make rapid progress with the business which they had come to accomplish; but at present they were not prepared for the adoption of this resolution. He would therefore move that this resolution be postponed until Monday week, when he would call it up again if nobody else did.

The resolution was by consent postponed until Monday week.

LEAVE OF ABSENCE.

On the motion of Mr. BARLOW, leave of absence until Monday week was granted to Mr. Hamilton.

PROPOSAL TO TERMINATE DEBATE.

Mr. KELLY moved that all debate in committee of the whole on the amendment of the gentleman from Nelson, (Mr. Hardin,) to the re

had taken the occasion in his own peculiar way, to give notice of his future opposition to the bill. For this he was very much obliged, and had the gentleman given the same notice on the question under consideration, he (Mr. W.) would perhaps have been better prepared to meet the subject than he was when it was sprung upon him the other day.

port made from the committee on the court of Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE, said that his colleague appeals, be terminated at 1 o'clock this day, and that the committee shall then proceed to vote thereon. He said he made this motion with a view to expedite the business of the convention. In the course of a few days it might be necessary that he should be absent for a brief period, and as it had been suggested that the question involved a greater responsibility than any other that had arisen during their deliberations, he desired the opportunity of voting against the amendment. He called for the yeas and nays on his motion.

The PRESIDENT had some doubt whether the motion was in order, for the report referred to was in the possession of the committee of the whole, and was not now before the convention. He did not see how they could reach it while it was in committee of the whole.

Here the conversation dropped without any action on the motion, the President having decided that it was out of order.

REPORT OF A COMMITTEE.

Mr. MCHENRY, from the committee on miscellaneous provisions made a report as follows, which was referred to the committee of the whole and ordered to be printed:

PREAMBLE.

ARTICLE 1.

Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE suggested that the motion would be in order, if made so as to instruct We, the representatives of the people of the the committee to rise and report upon the amend-state of Kentucky, in convention assembled, to ment at a certain hour. The committee certain secure to all the citizens thereof the enjoyment ly were bound to obey the instructions of the of the rights of life, liberty, and property, and house. But he should vote against any motion of pursuing happiness, do ordain and establish to arrest debate, believing that, although it had this constitution for its government. consumed something like two days, it had not been unprofitable to the house and the country. It was too important a question to decide without full debate, and as the mover of the amendment, and others desired to be heard upon it, he believed they should have that opportunity. Like the gentleman he was anxious, and indeed he was compelled to be absent for a few days, but if public duty required him to stay, his individual interests must take their chance.

Mr. HARDIN would do any thing in the world to accommodate the gentleman from Washington, but it was impossible that he could get a vote on the amendment at one o'clock today. The whole article had to be gone through with in committee before it was reported, and the ayes and noes could only be called after it had come back to the house. By that time both gentlemen would have returned to the house. There were a great many propositions connected with this article that would elicit discussion. There was the question in relation to the four judges-another in relation to the eight years term-and then there was the question of eligibility on which undoubtedly there was a formidable battle to be fought. That was the place where he meant to make a stand if he had to die in the ditch. This was the leading bill of the house, and opportunity ought to be afforded for a full discussion upon it. He did not know whether he should speak again on the subject or not, such was the feeble condition of his health, but he was willing to forego any remarks on that point. But on the great question of eligibility or re-eligibility, he did desire to be heard at some length. He desired also to be heard on the question as to the manner of voting. He was in favor of the viva voce system and wished it applied to all offisers that were to be elected. He had no idea that the manner of voting for a judge should be different. They were not the sun, that we were obliged to look at them through a smoked glass, and he was willing to look them in the face and vote aye or no, as he chose.

Concerning the distribution of the powers of the

government.

SEC. 1. The powers of the Government of the state of Kentucky shall be divided into three dis tinct departments, and each of them be confided to a separate body of magistracy, to-wit: those which are legislative to one; those which are executive to another, and those which are judiciary to another.

SEC. 2. No person, or collection of persons, being of one of those departments, shall exercise any power properly belonging to either of the others, except in the instances hereinafter expressly directed or permitted.

COURT OF APPEALS.

The convention then again resolved itself into committee of the whole, on the report of the committee on the court of appeals, Mr. HUSTON in the chair.

Mr. R. N. WICKLIFFE. I have been a listener during the whole sitting of this convention, and I have derived much more gratification thereby, than I expect to impart by speaking any crude notions of my own. The committee on the court of appeals have submitted their report proposing some very serious innovations upon our present judiciary system. They propose to elect the judges, to fix their term of office at eight years, and to make them responsible to at least two-thirds of the legislature. The gentleman from Nelson in his amendment now under consideration, proposes to make them responsi ble not to two-thirds of both branches of the legislature, but to a majority of both branches. I shall vote for that amendment, and I shall vote also for the proposition of the committee to elect the judges. As a part of the means to secure that responsibility of the judge, heretofore needed, the committee propose to elect him for the limited term of eight years. For the purpose of securing a more immediate and practicable responsibility than that limited term of office of it