on his proposition in committee of the whole, as | sary in that portion of the Constitution of Kenwell as in the House, and he trusted the motion tucky concerning the Militia, and the appointof the gentleman from Jefferson would prevail, ment of the officers thereof. and the committee constituted under it would so establish the rules of this House.

The question was then taken on Mr. MITCHELL'S proposition, and it was rejected, and the original resolution of Mr. MERIWETHER was adopted.

The PRESIDENT then named the following gentlemen as the committee on rules under the, resolution just adopted: Messrs. Meriwether Dixon, Davis, McHenry, Barlow, Mitchell, and Irwin.

MODE OF PROCEEDING.

Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. Mr. President, I rise to submit some resolutions, not proposing any specific proposition to change or alter the Constitution, but to indicate the views which I have at this early hour as to the mode and manner by which we shall approach the labors which lie before us. I desire to have the resolutions read, and if it is the pleasure of the House to consider them now, I will give such explanations as occur to me with regard to them, that they may be comprehended by those who hear me.

Mr. NUTTALL. I would make a suggestion to my friend from Nelson (Mr. Wickliffe.) Had we not better first elect Public Printers? When the important business of the Convention is about to be brought before us in a tangible shape, we ought to be enabled to have the documents printed, that we may form deliberate opinions upon

them.

Mr. PRESIDENT. The resolutions are before the Convention, and therefore the proposition of the gentleman from Henry is not now in order.

Mr. NUTTALL. I am aware of that, but I suggest that the gentleman withdraw his resolutions; then we can proceed to the election of a Printer, after which the gentleman's resolutions

will be first in order.

4. That a committee of nine Delegates be appointed to report what "amendments or changes" are necessary to be made in so much of the Constitution of Kentucky as concerns the Legislative Department of the Government.

5. That a committee of fifteen Delegates be appointed to report what "amendments or changes' are necessary in that portion of the Constitution of Kentucky that relates to the Court of Appeals, the appointment of the Judges and Clerk thereof.

6. That a committee, to consist of fifteen Delegates, be appointed to report what "amendments or changes" are necessary to be made in that portion of the Constitution of Kentucky which relates to the appointment of the Judges of inferior Courts, and officers thereof, and the tenure of their offices.

7. That a committee, to consist of Delegates, be appointed to report what "amendments or changes" are necessary to be made in the Constitution of Kentucky in relation to the County Courts, the qualifications and mode of appointment, and the tenure of office of the Justices and Clerks thereof.

8. That a committee, composed of Delegates, be appointed to report what "amendments or changes" are necessary to be made in any of the miscellaneous provisions of the Constitution of Kentucky; and that said committees have power to report from time to time, until their labors are completed.

Mr. WALLER. Mr. President, I wish to offer a resolution as a substitute. Similar resolutions were adopted in the Conventions of the States of Virginia and New York.

The Secretary read the Resolution as follows: Resolved, That a committee of seven be appointed to inquire and report what method will be most expedient in bringing before the ConMr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. The resolutions pro-vention alterations or amendments of the Conpose no change of principle; but only indicate stitution which may be preferred. the appointment of certain committees to whom the body will refer certain duties to be performed in the preparation of business.

The Resolutions were then sent up to the Secretary's Desk and read as follows:

Mr. G. DAVIS. Mr. President, before the

substitute is considered I will offer an amend

ment in the form of an additional resolution to those offered by the gentleman from Nelson (Mr. C. A. Wickliffe.)

1. Resolved, That a committee of nine Dele- The Secretary read the Resolution as follows: gates be appointed, whose duty it shall be to reResolved, That a select committee of five be port such amendments or changes" in the Con-appointed by the President, with instructions to stitution of Kentucky, as they may deem neces-report, in substance, as the first provision of a sary in the provisions thereof which relate to new, or amended Constitution, that no member the election and appointment, term of office, of this Convention shall be eligible to any office, powers and duties of the Governor, Lieutenant or place of trust or profit, established directly Governor, Secretary of State, and such other ex-by it, or that may be established under the auecutive civil officers whose duties ordinarily are thority of any constitutional provision which it required to be discharged at the Seat of Govern-may adopt; or the mode of appointment, or elec

ment.

tion, to which may be prescribed by any such constitutional provision, or by any such law, until after the expiration of ten years from the ratification and approval of this Constitution by the qualified voters of this Commonwealth.

2. That a similar committee be appointed to report such "amendments or changes" as may be necessary in the Constitution of Kentucky, in the provisions thereof which relate to the appointment, qualifications, term of office, duties Mr. IRWIN. At this distance I could not disand powers of all other executive or ministerial tinctly hear the resolution of the gentleman civil officers whose jurisdiction and powers may from Bourbon (Mr. Davis,) but so far as I could be confined to counties, districts, cities, or towns. understand, it seems to me to cut off every gen3. That a like committee be appointed to re-tleman in this House from any office to be creaport what "amendments or changes" are neces-ted by the Constitution. (Laughter.) If I am

correct in my understanding, before this resolu- | postpone their consideration. Certainly I cannot tion shall have been adopted I feel some disposi- vote for the amendment of the gentleman from tion to resign. (Renewed laughter.) Bourbon, because it involves a great principle.

to it as my young friend from Logan (Mr. Irwin,) for I certainly have no idea of holding office under the new Constitution.

Mr. NUTTALL. I wish to superadd to the amendment of the gentleman from Bourbon the following: "provided however, that this amendment shall only apply to such members of this Convention as shall vote for the same.'

Mr. A. K. MARSHALL. It seems to me that this is a very important step which we are about to take, and it is one which I am not disposed to vote upon at present. This resolution is to govern the future action of the Convention, as I understand it, and should be fully examined. I therefore move that it be laid on the table and printed.

Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. I did not in the pro-I do not know that I have so great an objection jet I drew in my resolutions, borrow from any system adopted as I am aware by any Convention of a sister State, as I had not access to the journals of any other State. I am therefore entirely responsible for the propriety of these resolutions, and I desire that they may not be encumbered, when they are only intended to enable the presiding officer of this body, if in accordance with the views of the delegates, to go to work and select committees, to whom certain duties devolving on us under the law calling the Convention, may be assigned. Of course there is nothing in these resolutions, which expresses directly or indirectly, or desires to extract the opinions of any member of this House upon any principle either of the Constitution to be framed, or any change of the present Constitution or a- Mr. DAVIS. Mr. President, I believe that mendment thereof. I should carefully abstain motion is subject to debate. I made my propofrom thus early introducing such a resolution sition in all good faith, and should be greatly myself; but to enable us to do this work, I think gratified myself to see this Convention, if they we should have something of system or order, think it proper, adopt it. It is not the presenand certain duties and labors assigned and ap. tation of a new principle to me, but a new apportioned out among the members thereof.plication of one found both in the Federal and Hence it was that I proposed the appointment of our own State Constitution, and as I think not different committees. There should devolve on an unimportant and useless one as proposed in one committee, the duty of examining the present the amendment I have offered. I will call the Constitution with reference to the Executive de- attention of the gentleman from Henry, (Mr. partment of the government; another with refer- Nuttall.) and of the Convention to the clause in ence to the Legislative department; another, with each Constitution. I do not know that the reference to the Judicial department; and then amendment suggested by my very respected the miscellaneous provisions of the Constitution. friend from Henry would have any personal apThese committees, composed of the delegates of plication to himself, because I am not satisfied this House, selected by the judgment of the pre- that the effect and tendency of my amendment siding officer, would immediately go to work.- would in any way be to exclude him from They would make a report to-day, or to-morrow, any place under any Constitution. [Laughter.] or the next day, of so much of their labor as they If it had the effect to exclude myself, why I had prepared, say connected with the Execu- should have no sort of objection to it-none. tive department,-calling it if you please, num- What I have said is in pure good humor to my ber one. That will then be placed upon your respected friend, for whose talents and abilities calendar as an order of the day. Another will I have the highest respect, and to whom I am be prepared to report in part, the duties allotted ready to tender my personal regard and friendto them. They have examined, deliberated up-ship; and I should feel some distress to-be-sure on, and digested the work; have consulted, and if he should be cut off from any office or the carefully put together the result of their labors in country lose the great advantage of his talents a manner and in language that cannot possibly and experience. Any proposition I have made be misunderstood. We can then take up those here, I trust, will be fraught with no such catasreports from day to day, and if it is the desire of trophe, either to himself or the country. the House, we can discuss them here, and if necessary the committee may explain, and any member of the House will be at liberty to offer. amendments and have a vote taken upon them. And when it is perfected, we can take the vote on its engrossment and lay it aside as so much labor finished, to be put together in the mode hereafter to be agreed upon by the House. The proposition of the Delegate from the county of Bourbon, might be very appropriate as a matter of instruction to the committees, or a separate committee might be raised, and instructed to put such a proposition in the Constitution as would have that effect. But it seems to me not appropriate to the resolution which I had the honor to submit to this House. If the object of the resolutions I submitted is understood, I desire not to consume the time of the House; and if they desire further time to reflect and examine a better plan than I have submitted, I will cheerfully

In the Constitution of the United States, Sec. 6, of the 1st Article, the second clause reads thus:

"No member of the Senate or of the House of

Representatives shall, during the time for which he shall have been elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority of the United States, which shall have been created or the emoluments whereof increased during such time; and no person holding any office under the United States shall be a member of either house during his continuance in office."

The provision of our own Constitution I presume was borrowed by the wise men who framed it from the words just read from the Federal Constitution. It is as follows:

"No Senator or Representative shall, during the term for which he was elected, or for one year thereafter, be appointed or elected to any civil office of profit under this Commonwealth, which shall have been created, or the emoluments of

which shall have been increased, during the time Now I do not know, and indeed have no hope, such Senator or Representative was in office, unfortunately, that the proposition will prevail; except such offices or appointments as may be nevertheless it has as much of my confidence, made or filled by the elections of the people." and will have from me as steady and as earnest Now I propose an extension and application of a support, though I stand solitary and alone in this principle of exclusion from office to those uttering my voice in its favor, as if it was to rewho are to make offices, the members of this ceive the unanimous sanction of this body and body, and that this exclusion shall have effect the people of this State. I believe it to be right, and operation for a term of ten years. It is not and that it would work good to our constitua total exclusion, but its extent will depend on ency and the country. I will add one or two the innovation and change which this body may arguments why I believe it will not prevail. make upon the existing Constitution, and accord-Under the existing system, and the principles of ing to my best care and deliberation I drew it up our present Constitution, a great, powerful, and to have that restricted operation. If this Conven- talented party, consisting of nearly one half of tion by any constitutional provision should es- the voters of Kentucky, are excluded from executablish a new office, every member of it, if my tive appointments. I admit it to be a wrong. proposition should prevail,-including myself, I maintain that in all our governments, General who will vote for it, and including my respect- and State, the mass of the important politied friend from Henry who I presume will vote cal offices, those that mould the administration against it would be necessarily excluded from and give character to it-the executive adminisoffice. And so it is meant for myself. If the tration and the active politics of the govern provisions of the Constitution should authorize ment-ought to be filled with the friends of that the Legislature to create and establish other offi- government. But when you come to judicial ces, and the Legislature under the authority of and minor ministerial offices, I utterly condemu such a provision or provisions should pass laws and abhor that piratical principle that would for the establishment of other offices, why, in eject men from such places because they dared to like manner, he and myself would be excluded think for themselves, and to entertain principles, from appointment or election to those offices? and to cherish systems of policy not acceptable to There is another branch of the resolution that the incumbents having the appointing power. provides that where the mode of appointment or Such a principle is oppression and tyranny, of election shall have been changed by this and I would like to see the free people of this amended or new Constitution, or by any law country trample it in the dust and annihilate it. passed under its authority, this exclusion I admit that it is wrong and unjust to exclude shall have application to such cases also. If the great Democratic party in this State from all the office of Governor or Lieut. Governor re-executive appointments. We see them rallied mains intact by this body, no gentleman aspi- against the present mode as one man, and why? ring to those high positions, under the effect and Because the present system entirely excludes operation of my amendment, would be excluded them from these places, these judicial offices, from them. If the term of these offices is deem- and authorizes their filling by executive appointed too long, it might be limited to three or ment. I am not prepared to say that any systwo years, and still the prohibition not extend tem we may introduce in its stead would be betto any member of this Convention. If there ter. We are all frail and erring. No human instishould be a change made in the organization of tution is perfect. No system that the experience the Legislative department of the Government and wisdom and virtue of man can devise will for example, that its election should be biennial, ever work infallibly. None! On this subject I and that unless convened on extraordinary oc- have no fixed principles or predilections. I want casions by the Governor, its sessions should be, light-to interchange views and feelings and senby the Constitution, restricted to once in two timents with my associates in this body. I want years-which I hope will be a provision and the best system that can be devised by the reflecfeature in the new Constitution every gentle- tion, experience, wisdom, and patriotism of this man who should vote for that provision would body, to be thrown before it for its fair and unbe eligible to seats in either branch of the Le-restricted consideration; and if I know myself, gislature. If the mode of appointing Judges when that system is addressed to me, and should remain the same as it is under the exist- conforms to the dictates of my conscience and ing Constitution, and to my mind, there will be judgment, I am prepared to adopt it, come from great if not insuperable difficulty in improving what source it may. But I am utterly and irrethat mode, although it is objectionable to my-versibly opposed to the election of the judiciary self-still, if that mode should be preserved un-by the popular vote. I am equally inflexible in der a new Constitution, and the Judges be re-my opposition to the election of the judiciary quired to hold their offices for a limited time-by the vote of the two Houses of the Legislature. which principle I should like to see adopted in On the other hand, I see how impracticable and the Constitution every gentleman on this floor will be eligible to the judicial offices of the State. So that I beg leave to inform my young friend from Logan, or at least so recently from Logan, that he will pardon me for forgetting his locality-and to my friend from Henry, that the provision which I have submitted to the consideration of the Convention, is not as sweeping as a superficial view would authorize gentlemen to

infer.

vain would be any proposition that did not concede something to this party that has been entirely excluded from these offices. The organization which at present seems to me most proper, but which I will cheerfully yield to any proposition that on reflection appears to me better, is this: That when the Legislature couvenes, and there is a vacancy in a judicial office, the members of the House of Representatives from the district in which such vacancy exists, shall get

together and form themselves into an electoral majority, in favor of calling the Convention. college, and shall name for the office two candi- If then the citizens of his county voted for caldates-two gentlemen resident within the dis-ling the Convention and elected him a member trict and shall nominate them to the Senate, of it, how is it that he offers a resolution which which body shall nominate one of them to the Governor, and he shall receive the commission of the Commonwealth as Judge of the district. I would like some such system as that-something that would do justice to both of the great parties in this State."

I cannot but think was offered with the intention of defeating any Constitution which this Convention may make. He seems to mourn for the fate of the democratic party of Kentucky. I did not expect to hear much, in this place, in regard to the democratic party, or in regard to the While our friends constitute numbers nearly party of which the gentleman is a member. We as great as ourselves, embodying talents, virtue, were not elected for party purposes. If the genand patriotism nearly or quite as great as we do, tleman comes here with the intention of defeatI regard it as unjust and oppressive that they ing the very object of the Convention-with the should be excluded from all these offices. If intention of securing the rejection of any Conany one of the number of the able men of that stitution which this Convention may make-I party on this floor, whose reflection and experi-imagine that when he goes back to his constituence will enable him to devise a system that will ents, they will tell him that he has not truly secure something like equal justice to both par- represented their will and wishes. The people ties that will at the same time avoid the vio- have expressed their will, and have sent us here lence, the corruption, the bribery, and the great not to act upon principles of party policy. No, train of ills that will follow the popular election Sir, but to change the organic law of the State, of the judicial officers of this Commonwealth, and to make it conform to their will and wishes. and will prevent the offices being thrown into What is the great object which is to be acthe Legislature of the State for scramble and in-complished by us? Is it not to change the mode trigue-I say, if any gentleman will devise a of appointment of the various important officers better system than the one I have introduced, I of the State? The Judiciary is one class of those will thank him for myself, and will most cor- officers. The duration of their offices, as those dially adopt it. I did not intend to debate this offices are at present constituted, is highly obproposition. but to throw it out, not for present jectionable to the people. No mode of appointaction or discussion, but that members might ment, the gentleman says, can be perfect-no think and ponder upon it, and if they came to system of government can be perfect. That is the conclusion that it was worthless-reject it. true; but if there be any mode on earth by which If it deserved a better consideration, they could appointments can be made that is as pure and as give it to it—but I think now is the proper time free from corruption as when made by the sovat the very threshhold of our deliberations-ereign people, I acknowledge that I am mistato offer it. If it was possible by my vote to cut ken. The people are the sovereignty of the off the members who are to frame a Constitution, State, and the power belonging to the people is from all political office and hope, and even from that power which regulates the interests and every party tie, I would cast such a vote. I welfare of this great Commonwealth. When would say that they should stand aloof, as im- the government is in the hands of the peopartial, unsullied, pure, unsuspected arbiters ple, it is near and dear to them. Then why among contending partizan factions. They should we trust to any other power than that should form a government for the present and of the people of the Commonwealth to do this for posterity. They should have no political important work? I mean, to appoint the high object or hope beyond that work. If that work officers of government-those officers who dewas badly done, it would be sufficient evidence rive the pay for the services they render directthat they ought not to be trusted with any other. ly from the people. Who, I say, can be better If it was well done, it would, in my opinion, af- qualified to appoint those officers than the peoford a just and sufficient fame to satisfy the am- ple themselves? It would be a shame to deprive bition of any properly organized mind. I would them of it; and I should be very reluctant to see not only exclude them from office under the State, my name enrolled with those who would deny but under the general government. I would cut to the people the privilege of making such apthem off as far as practicable from being parti-pointments. I should be equally reluctant to zans. They should know none of the motives, personal or private, that operate upon the human mind and conscience, to debauch it and to pervert it to wrong conclusions. None! But I will add nothing more on this subject at present, but to express the hope that gentlemen will give this subject, as I have sought to give it myself, a careful examination, and if they are not satisfied with it and think it ought to be rejected, I shall feel no disappointment at the result.

Mr. HARGIS. When the gentleman offered his resolution, it appeared to me that perhaps his intention was to defeat any Constitution which this Convention might make. I do not know that I clearly apprehended the gentleman's object, but I think I am not mistaken when I say that the citizens of his county voted, by a considerable

favor the proposition that no member of this Convention should hold office for the next ten years. I should be ashamed that it should go forth to the world, that this Convention passed a resolution that no one of its members should hold office under the Constitution that we may make, within a period of ten years. I would ask the gentleman where he ever found a precedent for such a resolution? If such should be adopted, I apprehend both he and myself would be quite too old afterwards to participate in the affairs of the government. It strikes me, that we are pretty well advanced in years already. I do not know that he entertains any wish to receive an appointment, but I have no doubt there are friends of the gentleman who would not be so reluctant to render their services to the State.

But at all events I have more confidence in the | to the gentleman's resolution. I shall now ask members of this Convention, than to be willing leave to withdraw it, and at the same time tento declare that they shall not hold office under the new Constitution for a period of ten years. I want to show that we are not ashamed or afraid to submit the work of our hands to our constituents, and if it be found that we have been good and faithful servants, perhaps the people may desire that we should contínue insured, that the country would never be able to their service.

der my respects to the gentleman from Bourbon, (Mr. Davis,) for whom I have always entertained a high regard. I shall not however vote in favor of the gentleman's proposition; because I prefer to save to the country the benefit of his ability and talents, (laughter,) for I am well as

progress without the aid of his distinguished talents. (Renewed laughter.)

The gentleman says, let the Districts nominate two persons to the Senate for the office of Cir- Mr. CLARKE. I do not intend to present to cuit Judge and let the Senate determine between the consideration of the Convention, any projet them. But would not that defeat the very in-or plan of change necessary to be made in the tention which the gentleman professes to have Constitution of the State; nor will I detain the in view? If you should have a Whig Senate Convention more than a few minutes. I have would they not be very apt to appoint a Whig read with some care and particularity, the propJudge? Or if the Senate should be Democratic osition of the gentleman from Bourbon, and I would not the appointee be a man of their own have only to remark, that the principle that is politics? Why not then, to avoid this dilemma, therein attempted to be applied to the members refer the matter to the people themselves? If, of this Convention, has never been applied to sir, the people are the sovereign power of the the members of any Convention in this Union State, which they are, if they support and which has assembled for the purpose of forming uphold the State, which they do, for they pay a Constitution. I am aware that in the Constitufor the services of their officers-ought they not tion of the United States, and I believe that in to have the right to appoint those officers? And the Constitution of every State in the Union, ought they not to have the right to say how there is a provision that no member of a Legislalong they shall serve, and to have the right also tive body, who shall be engaged in the creation to say whether those who have served them al- of any office, shall be appointed or promoted to ready in one capacity shall continue to serve that office, during his term of service in the them in a different capacity? But do not under-body by which the office was created. If I unstand me as saying that I would place a man be-derstand the position of the gentleman from fore the people for a high office unless he were a Bourbon, it is this-it seems at least to resolve man of high standing. For instance, in the case itself into the enquiry-what is the creation of of the appointment of a Judge, I would require an office? If a change be made in the manner that the candidate should be a man of long ex- and mode of appointment, does the gentleman perience at the bar. Although I belong to the mean that such change shall be considered as the Democratic party, a fact which I believe is very creation of a new office? I certainly so underwell known, so far from placing before the peo-stand the gentleman. If I misunderstood him, ple for appointment a man not duly qualified, II would be glad to be corrected. would require full and complete qualification and fitness in all candidates for office. I would not only have them qualified to discharge the duties of the office, but I would have them to be residents of the Districts in which their duties are to be performed. I would not only have the appointments of the Judges made by the people, but I would leave to the people the election of all officers whom they are to pay for their services, As regards the Secretary of State, Auditors, and such other officers, I would not insist upon their appointments being made by the people; but as regards those officers who reside in the various Districts, and whose services are to be there discharged, the people are better qualified to elect them than any other tribunal. There is a great deal that I might add upon this subject, but I do not desire to consume the time of the Convention. I merely wish to throw out these suggestions, and I would be glad to hear the opinions of gentlemen on both sides upon a matter as important as this is. Indeed I do not know that any remarks upon this subject are in order at this time. The subject seems to have been brought forward prematurely.

Mr. DAVIS. The gentleman does misunderstand me. That is a distinct class of cases. The gentleman will find that there are two classes provided for in the resolution; first, those cases where offices are newly created; secondly, those in which there is only a change or modification in the manner of appointment.

Mr. CLARKE. And am I to understand that

the gentleman intends that in this latter case it shall be considered as the creation of a new of

fice?

Mr. DAVIS. I do not pretend to determine; but my proposition is to this effect: that where any action is had by the Convention itself, or by legislation occurring under the provisions which we may adopt, which may operate merely to change the mode of appointment of public officers, it will form a distinct class of cases to which the restriction, shall or shall not apply according to the nature of the change produced.

Mr. CLARKE. Yes, I understand. Now I have no idea that this Convention will create in that sense any new office whatever; but I do expect and I trust that expectation will be verified by the ultimate action of this Convention, that Mr. NUTTALL. I do not myself believe there will be a change in the mode of electing that this is the proper time for the discussion of almost every officer in the State. For my own this question. Nor do I think it is a time for part, I desire that there should be a change in the the indulgence of pleasantry; and, perhaps, had mode of electing the Judges of the Court of ApI sufficiently considered what was due to self-peals, and indeed I may say I desire to see alrespect, I should not have offered the amendment most every officer elected by the people of the