mittees being thus indicated, it seems to me we might at an earlier period be prepared to commence the operations which have brought us here together. Under that state of the case, and with a view to facilitate as far as may be, the object which has assembled it, and to despatch as speedily as may be the business of the Convention, I shall for one vote for the rules as they have been reported by the committee.

myself, that the labors of this body should be bought to a speedy and successful close. Nor is there anyone more aware than I am that the interposition of any obstacle to a free and fair discussion, would be the means of frustrating, to a very great extent that desirable object. I am for estabfishing some correct basis of procedure, and not having had the honor to present any project for the consideration of the Convention, I am wedded to no plan, and I am prepared with an unbiased Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. The question immejudgment to decide upon the various proposi- diately before the Convention is the motion of tions which have been submitted. If I belonged the gentleman from Bourbon, to substitute for to the division of this body, if there be such a di- the proposition I have offered, the one that vision, who believe that no alteration should be we will at 11 o'clock each day go into committee made in the existing Constitution, I should be of the whole, and take up the Constitution as we prepared to support the substitute offered by the find it on the statute book, and then alter and gentleman from Bourbon. In my apprehension amend it as each member may choose to propose. the substitute assumes that the existing Consti- All who favor the appointment of committees in tution is not susceptible of improvement. At least preference, will of course vote against the propit presents the question in a very doubtful as- osition of the gentleman from Bourbon, whether pect. It presupposes that it has to a very great they prefer the number of committees and the extent the approbation of this body, and resolves division of their labors and duties introduced in the question into a mere enquiry as to whether the report of the committee, or in the amendment it can or cannot be improved. The people of proposed by myself. I listened with a great deal Kentucky by a large and decided majority, say of pleasure to the gentleman from Bourbon, and they will have constitutional amendment and to his illustrations of the effect of his mode of reform. We come up here representing a con- proceeding, but some little experience in the stituency in favor of such a measure. Shall we legislative branches of our government, has then at the very threshold present ourselves in taught me to believe, I may be wrong, that we such an attitude as to appear before our constitu- must work under the guidance of rules, and that ency as doubting whether such amendment and seldom, unless on extraordinary occasions, is the reform can be made? In assuming the existing public business advanced or promoted by disConstitution as a basis of our operations in com- pensing with the rules which govern us. Unmittee of the whole we give to it prima facie our der these rules, to work prudently and intelligentpreference. So it would seem to me, and hence ly, we must have system and order. Suppose that I am opposed to the plan proposed by the gen- we go into committee of the whole at once on tleman from Bourbon. The sanction of all par- the Constitution of Kentucky, and each member liamentary usage as I understand it, is against has his project of amendment. We have had alsuch a proposition. It is necessary that some ready several indications of the opinions of nucleus should be formed around which the opin- members through resolutions, and there was one ions of this body can be concentrated. The ef- this morning embracing almost the entire Confect of presenting the present Constitution, and stitution. We should have in committee of the taking up article by article in committee of the whole, perhaps, to discuss and debate the propowhole, would be to resolve every member of this sition to amend in some shape and form, of every Convention who may have a plan of his own in- gentleman here, whereas, if the amendment or to a committee. He presents his own project, the principle upon which it is predicated was and there would be a want of concentration drawn out in form with care by some committee, and unity of action, which it seems to me would you would see the whole framework before you. be the means of protracting debate here, and of I will assume what I believe to be the fact, and I lengthening much beyond the time which has do not think I can be mistaken, that a large mabeen anticipated, the session of the Conven- jority of this body have been elected here upon tion. It has been objected that in the meantime, the principle that the tenure of all officers, while these committees were digesting various whether Executive, Legislative, or Judicial, plans and were preparing their reports, this Con- should be changed. They have been, too, a large vention would be without business. The rules majority upon another principle, that the mode propose to embody this entire Convention into of appointment should be changed from that of eleven committees of nine members each-consti- the Executive exercise of power to an election tuting aggregately ninety-nine members, and by the voters of the State. Now I assume upon these would be engaged in carrying forward the that principle that the Judiciary is to be organbusiness of this Convention. It is true the Con-ized on the basis of the elective franchise, and I vention, as a body, might not be prepared to act immediately after the appointment of the committees, but still the business which has assembled us here, would nevertheless be in progress. I was at the first blush, prepared to vote for such an organization of committees as is contemplated by the resolutions of the gentleman from Nelson, but upon reflection, it seems to me that the labors of this body would be better distributed by the plan proposed in the report of the committee on rules. The labors of the com

ask you in organizing the whole judicial system of this Commonwealth-the Appellate Courts, Circuit Courts, Chancery Courts, and County Courts,-how long it would take this Convention, by resolution and amendment to perform that labor, and produce its result in any thing like an intelligent shape? It would be a most admirable theatre, I admit, for the display of those powers possessed by many in this House, to illustrate the necessity of a reform in the organic law, and to point out abuses which have crept into our system

of government and the necessity for their refor-see it, and take it up, and judge how the princi mation; but we want nothing to convince us of ple of an elective judiciary could be carried out that. Our constituents sent us here to execute with safety to the country and the people. On their will in that particular, and the object now their report coming in, we could take it up as is to lay out the work, and carry out the reforms the Legislature do a bill, and move to amend it, in accordance with their wishes. Delay and in- add to it, and discuss it. It is no objection to convenience must be the result of discussing me if we have a committee, to say that its influthe Constitution in the mode indicated by the ence will be felt in the House. You will have gentleman from Bourbon. I think what has individuals-members of this body-whose duty taken place this morning must satisfy every mem- it will be made particularly to attend to the ber of the House that under such a system, work of their own hands-to see that it is perwe must have amendment after amendment, and feet, and to prevent, as far as they can, by argusubstitute upon substitute, to an extent that the ment and discussion, any innovation that is calHouse, by the hour of 1 o'clock, would be brought culated to render it worse, or change it entirely into such a state of confusion that it would not in feature or principle. With this explanation I be able, in the course of a week's session, to tell shall leave it, so far as I am concerned, to the precisely the question upon which they were judgment of the House, to pursue what I have called upon to vote. I will therefore briefly call no doubt it will do, on all occasions, its own the attention of the Convention to the division course in reference to the action through which of labor, if we appoint the committees as indica- it will get at its labors. As to the question of ted in the rule under consideration. I am sure time-if this was a meeting got up to nominate that if the committee will review their own a man for Governor, we have been here long works, they will see that it is not the best di- enough to do it. If we had come here to take up vision that could be made. The preamble and local legislation, and to redress personal grievfirst article of the Constitution were to be re-ances, we have been here long enough to pass at ferred to one committee of nine Delegates. The least fifty or sixty divorce bills. But the amendfirst article is merely the division of the powers ing of a constitution that has lasted for some fifty of government into three several classes of magis- years, and the making of one that shall last, I trates; the next, that no person exercising the hope, fifty years longer, is a work not to be done duties of one office shall interfere with another-in haste. It requires deliberation, examination, and there ends the whole duties of nine Delegates. order and system, that we may be satisfied with You refer this preamble and article to nine men the results of our labor when it goes from our to make report, when it is not designed to change hands. either of them. As I remarked yesterday as to Mr. DIXON. I feel that it is very important the schedule, when you take up the Constitution that the Convention arrive at a proper decision as we have it put together, you will find that if as to the three propositions which are now before you confine the duties of the committees to the it; because on that will depend very much, our several articles and not to the operations of pow-success in the progress of the business of the er, you will have under the head of Judicial or Convention. There are three propositions which Legislative branch, the business of appointing are submitted, and I apprehend that every gencoroners or sheriffs, and of appointing and com-tleman of the Convention is anxious to adopt that missioning militia officers. There can be then I think not much harmony in the work of these constituted committees when they shall be engaged in their labor.

In reference to the question of delay, I have already said I believe that we would save time, and expedite the work of this body, by the adoption of a plan of committees. The gentleman from Bourbon seems to think that we shall all be idle, and there will be nothing to do in this House, while the committees are at work; and he consoled himself with the idea that he could go home and attend to his business at the courts; but if he happened to be assigned on a very important committee he would be unwilling to go home. Sir, this House will have enough to employ itself from the hour of 10 o'clock until 2 o'clock, in considering and discussing the various propositions that have and may be thrown upon the table, by way of settling general questions. For instance, if it is necessary to try the judgment of the House on an elective judiciary, we can have a resolution on the subject, that may as well be discussed in the House as elsewhere. Meanwhile, the judiciary committee would be at work, predicating their labor on what, in the opinion of this House was the public sentiment, that the judiciary should be elected. They could soon give us the result of their labor in such a form that the country and the House could

which will be best in bringing about a proper system of doing the business of the Convention. The first proposition is that which has been submitted by the committee appointed to report rules for the business of the Convention. The second is that which has been offered, I believe, by the gentleman from Nelson as a substitute; and the third, is that which has been offered by the gentleman from Bourbon, as a substitute for the whole. These are the various propositions that have been submitted. I do not see a very great difference between the proposition of the gentleman from Nelson, and that presented by the committee. They are in substance very much the same. But there is a very great difference between the proposition of the gentleman from Bourbon and that of the committee, or that of the gentleman from Nelson. I am clearly of opinion, that either the proposition reported by the committee, or that of the gentleman from Nelson, should be adopted. When I first came here, I was of the opinion myself, that the plan proposed by the gentleman from Bourbon would be the best; but in examining the course pursued by other Conventions, I satisfied myself that this plan would be wholly impracticable. I discovered that the Virginia Convention, in the first place, appointed a committee whose business it was to report the proper mode of proceeding. I discovered in the same. Convention, a propo

sition made by a distinguished member of that proposition that any gentleman may think propbody, similar to the one proposed by the gentle- er to bring forward can be submitted to the comman from Bourbon. It was voted down, I think, mittee, and when or before it is submitted that you by a large majority of the Convention. A simi- can discuss the proposition itself. I may offer lar proposition was made in the New York Con- a proposition to this effect, as I did yesterday, vention and voted down. I understand from a that the judicial officers of this government ought gentleman who has looked into the matter, that to be elected by the people, but that they should a similar proposition was made to the Tennessee be placed on an eminence which should secure Convention and adopted by it, and that after them against popular influences; against the presome time progressing under it, they came to the judices that might be engendered from the variconclusion that it was a bad mode and aban-ous causes that might arise in the election of a doned it, and at last adopted the mode suggest- judge and induce him to give a decision at war ed by the committee or the gentleman from Nel- with the real principles involved in the case. I son-that is, in spirit and substance. offer a proposition like that, and in what form do I present it? Resolved, That the committee on such an article of the constitution be instructed to report the substance of that proposition as an amendment to the constitution. I present this by way of illustration; and does not every gentleman see that when that proposition was reported, he would have the right to arise, and take issue with the principle, and to discuss it to any extent he may desire. Every proposition that any gentleman may desire, he will have full liberty to make, presenting it in the form of instructions to any one committee, and requiring them to report an amendment engrafting in the constitution the principle contained in the resolution offered. Does not every gentleman see at once that there is no difficulty on this point? Why then the necessity of referring everything to a committee of the whole, and dispensing entirely with the committees which are usual in all parliamentary bodies, and which are necessary to the proper presentation of business. It does seem to me that we have only to look at the ordinary routine of doing business in bodies like this to satisfy ourselves at once that this plan of committees is the one which will best conduce to the proper and speedy discharge of our business. After going into committee of the whole on the constitution, does any man suppose that he is to amend it as he desires. He may make speeches, and offer propositions to his heart's content, but what will he do in the way of amendment after all. He would have to provide some committee to lick the bantling into form. You cannot get along without committees, and it is useless to attempt it, as gentlemen would find if they adopt the resolution of the gentleman from Bourbon. I thought it to be the right plan when I first came here, and intended to offer a similar proposition myself, but on reflection, I am satisfied that it will not result in forwarding the business of the convention but rather in retarding it.

prop

I think that either the proposition reported by the committee, or that offered as a substitute by the gentleman from Nelson, should be adopted, because I am confident we shall never progress with the business of the convention unless we refer the important matters to committees. I care not what the committees may be, so they are formed on proper principles and organized with a view of preparing the business of the convention. I understand that my friend from Bourbon, whose speech I listened to with great pleasure, finds one great objection to the appointment of committees in the extraordinary influence which he apprehends they may exercise over the members of this convention. I understand the osition he has laid down to be, that whenever a committee has reported, an individual will be scarcely heard on this floor, or if heard at all, his voice will be lost in the mighty influence exercised by the committee over the other members. On this point, I think the gentleman is entirely mistaken. What are the privileges of members of this house? When these committees have reported, are there not various modes by which we may at once avoid any decision on their report. I do not like the decision of the committee, and I may make a proposition to recommit their report, or I may propose to lay it on the table, or to refer it to another committee. Do I not take the sense of the whole house as to the propriety of laying it on the table, of referring it back, or of making any other disposition it may be thought proper to make of it? Do I not address the good sense of the house as to the propriety of the step? And is it to be said that it is to be overridden by the mere expression of the committee, that it is right and proper their report should be adopted? Surely not. I see no possible objection, so far as regards any influence which the committee may exercise. We select these committees because we have confidence in them, and with a view not only that they may suggest the best mode of preparing the subject before them, but that they may bring it before the convention in such a form as will satisfy the country. That is the object. What is the proposition of the gentleman from Bourbon? The submission of all these matters at once to the committee of the whole, says he, will enable us to progress at once. We avoid the influence of committees in the first place, and then proceed at once to the investigation of all the great questions involved in an amendment of the constitution. And, says he, if we appoint committees and refer the business to them, what is this convention to do in their absence?" Does not the gentleman know that every possible

Mr. LINDSEY preferred the proposition of the gentleman from Bourbon, and was opposed to the appointment of committees. He said by turning to the present Constitution it would be found that there were several articles which needed no alteration. Take as has been suggested the first article, where it is proposed that nine members of this body shall be designated to do a work which no one believes is desired. The gentleman from Breathitt (Mr. Hargis) has himself this morning presented as much labor as a commttee of nine could have performed during the whole session. No one thinks of changing the plan by which the powers of the government are distributed, or the declaration that one branch of the government

may be rejected and some substitute offered by any member adopted. It will be found by looking into the three leading articles of the present Constitution, that the whole work is to be done there.

shall not interfere with another, and therefore so | And when you settle the qualification of the far as a committee is organized on that subject, elector who is to elect your representative; you the whole work is already done and well done. have settled it in regard to all other officers.There are several articles of the Constitution in Adopt the plan proposed by the committee on the same position. Take the article in reference rules, and you refer this subject to three distinct to impeachments-upon which also it is propos- committees, and they will perhaps each report a ed to constitute a committee of nine; no one distinct and different proposition. Each propo thinks of changing the present mode of impeach-sition will be subject to amendment, or the whole ing officers or the present declarations of the Constitution in relation thereto, unless it should be previously determined to change the mode of electing the legislature and the judiciary, and then it would become important to change the whole Constitution on the subject of impeach- So far as regards the executive, there is but ment. What is to become of this committee during little to do, and I imagine that if gentlemen will the time that another and an important commit- turn their attention to the present constitution, tee is acting on a matter confided to them. Are they will find there is to be but slight change they to sit in silence or to find other pursuits under any state of the case in that article. The to engage them until this question is determin- only changes will as directly come up under dised? So on the article in relation to the seat of cussion on an amendment to the second article government-and just here I beg leave to re-in relation to the legislative branch of the gov mark, that if there is to be a committe on that ernment, as they will under that referring to the subject, I hope it will be of one, and I that executive branch. All the sections in the pres member-because I am not disposed like Ban-ent constitution in relation to the executive dequo's ghost to wander in these halls alone, while partment, are embraced under the heads of the my friends Macbeth and Macduff are settling their ages and qualifications of those elected to the controversy. Take the article in relation to offices of Governor and Lieut. Governor-when slavery-it has been indicated here, and I think these terms shall commence and when end, and sufficiently strong, that no one contemplates the their several powers and duties. And here I introduction of new propositions in relation to would remark, that under the arrangement as inslavery. There are but two sections to the arti- troduced by the committee there will be found cle. One is, that slavery shall exist in this matters in the present constitution that really do Commonwealth, and the mode by which eman- not belong to the heads under which they are cipation shall take place; and there is the man- placed. Take for instance, the executive branch ner in which public prosecutions shall be had of the government under our present constituagainst slaves. What is to become of that while tion-many of the powers and duties appertaindiscussion is going on in relation to the execu-ing to which were distributed under the head of tive and legislative departments? We are here general powers. So it will be seen at once that for some purpose, and what is it? The present it will be utterly impossible, under the arrangeConstitution points it out. We first, are to re- ment the committee have made for us, that the vise or re-adopt the Constitution as it now ex-powers and duties of the several officers can be ists. If we refuse to adopt it, what next? Then we are to amend, alter, or change the present Constitution. Suppose we adopt this last course, let us see then whether we are not now under the resolution of the gentleman from Bourbon precisely where we would be after the reports of all the committees proposed were before the house. We are, and if expedition is the intention and object of this body, it ought at once to adopt that resolution as a substitute for the report of the committee on rules, and proceed to take the vote whether we will re-adopt the present Constitution. If we fail to do that, then we could proceed to amend, section by section, article by We are not a legislative body-we are to origarticle, the present Constitution. If we take it inate nothing new here-and the preparation of up on that plan, see what will be the operation. the duties devolved upon us cannot be assimilaThe second article relates to the legislative de- ted to that of a legislative body. There proppartment-the first section to the qualifications ositions are originated by members, and it be. of electors. Delegates here have already pre- comes a matter of importance that they should sented propositions in relation to qualifications be referred to the standing committees of the and restrictions upon the right of suffrage. House, composed of persons of experience and This is one of the most important questions to skill in the formation of the course of legislabe settled, and at the very outset of amending tion, that they may be compared with the Conthis Constitution. It is to come before this body stitution of the land, in order that it may be in connection with the principle of electing all seen whether they are in accordance with the the officers of the State-not only the represent-provisions of that instrument. That is not the ative but the executive and judicial officers. If we decide to adopt the principle of electing all officers, there at once the incipient step is the determination by whom they shall be elected.

arranged in a manner in which they can be sat isfactory. After the committees shall have reported we shall be precisely at the point where we are now. You take up the present constitution, and you proceed to amend, alter, or change it. The committees come in with their reports, and you proceed to act upon them, having their projet of a constitution in connection with the original one before you. You will have the same difficulties to meet as it is contended exist now. I think therefore that the proposition of the gentleman from Bourbon is the true and correct one.

case here. We take up section by section, and any gentleman may propose to amend. Suppose there should be a dozen amendments offered, these are all acted upon, and when you have

passed through your existing Constitution, and whether any committees are to be raised or not. have before you all the amendments that gentle- That is not the only question. In addition to men choose to offer, then you have the opportu- that, there is the much more important question, nity of making a selection and of arranging them shall the whole Constitution as it now exists, in a form perfectly to be understood by every undergo unlimited discussion in relation to the member of the House. I regard the plan sug-principles contained in it, and those which gengested by the gentleman from Bourbon as the tlemen think should be embodied in the new correct one, but if that is rejected I much prefer Constitution, or be referred to sub-committees the plan introduced by the gentleman from Nel- and be discussed by them in the committee rooms; son to that introduced by the committee; and for or shall those leading and general principles be the reason just given, that the present Constitu-settled in the first instance in committee of the tion embodies under different heads matters which whole? That is the question. Now, sir, the should not be there. The resolution of the gen- most perfect consummation of legislative meastleman from Nelson indicates the particular du-ures that I know of in the world, is to be found ties of the committees and their arrangement in in the British Parliament; that is, their measa better form than they exist under the present ures are better matured than those of any other Constitution, but it seems to me that even there legislative body to be found on the face of the we shall be met with the difficulties I have sug.earth. What is the uniform course that is purgested. The various committees will have their sued there? A subject is debated in the House various projects, whereas, if the Convention first of Commons in committee of the whole, and settled the principle-to elect all officers for ex- the great leading principles are there discussed, ample-they would have at once the settlement deliberated upon, decided, and established; afof the question; the delay too would be far less. ter that has been done, the subject is referred to Mr. MERIWETHER. The committee have a sub-committee invariably, to give shape and reported rules, among which is one, that re- fashion to the measures growing out of those quires each gentleman to confine himself to the principles thus debated. Now that is the propquestion before the house; and I would be very osition of my honorable friend, and it involves glad to see such a rule adopted, if no other. this question, whether this Convention in comThe question now pending before the Conven- mittee of the whole will proceed to do its proption, is whether we shall have committees at er and important office of deciding for itself the all or not. The question pending, is between great leading principles that shall be embodied the proposition of the gentleman from Bourbon, in the Constitution beforehand, and afterwards which excludes committees, and the other prop- refer the different subjects thus discussed and ositions which recommend their formation. Now decided upon to the appropriate committees for I have been taught to believe that the province the purpose of being drawn up in the form of a of the committee of the whole, was to settle gen- Constitution, or whether we shall permit the imeral principles, the province of sub-committees, portant work of forming a decision upon the to arrange the details. Then when we are in great leading principles of the Constitution to committee of the whole, we will debate general be done in the sub-committee rooms. I think principles, and when we meet in sub-committee the first mode the best. What is the proposition we will arrange details. For instance, sir, after and its effect? Why, as I said before, every printhe members of the sub-committees collectively ciple to be embodied in the new Constitution, here as a body in convention shall have heard every principle which any member of this Conthe discussion of general principles, and when vention shall have thrown before the body for its those principles shall have been settled, then consideration, every one which may merely be as the appropriate committees may arrange the yet nestling in the mind of any man is to be details to carry out those general principles. thrown by sections before the committees, and the reports of those committees taken together, will form the whole of any Constitution that we may make. Well now the question is, shall these committees go into secret conclave, pledged, perhaps themselves, against every important principle that you may propose-come before this Convention with their minds irrevocably fixed for or against those principles, or shall they first be discussed by the body-shall we have the advantage of a free and unrestricted interchange of opinion in regard to them? I prefer the latter course. What will be the effect of this proposition? Why, when the various subjects are referred to these committees, they will go into their committee rooms and there decide the principle of the various subjects entrusted to them; they will establish fixed and immutable rules for or against the principle contained in each particular proposition. They will then come in and make their report. When that is done? The reports of the committees are taken seriatim, referred to a committee of the whole and there debated, and precisely the same work which we now propose to go about in committee of the

I trust the Convention will vote down the proposition of the gentleman from Bourbon, and then the question will come up between the proposition submitted by the committee, and the substitute offered by the gentleman from Nelson.

Mr. DAVIS. I would not have said a word upon the subject, if I had not been a member of the committee for drafting rules, and had not submitted to the committee a proposition similar to the one now under consideration. I presented to the committee a proposition, similar to the one offered by my colleague for which I was indebted to his kindness. I will state my objection to the report of the committee in a few words. I agree with the chairman of the committee, that the business of the committee of the whole, is to settle the great and leading principles which are to guide the action of this body, and that the office or function of sub-committees is to throw those great principles into form or shape, and to report to us practical measures for adoption by the Convention; and so of all legislative bodies. Well now, what is proposed here? Not, as my friend says, a question simply