1932 1931 would go down the perilous track of the railroad? A. I may qualify that by saying it might depend somewhat upon the time of day; now, the avenue is not a crowded street, and the wagon probably would have a clear course there almost every time in the day; I do not think there is any question but what they would go down the avenue; but if it was in the daytime and it was crowded they would exercise their judgment about it at the time. Q. Do you think still, Mr. Coit, that you would prefer the open space of the Bowery and Fourth Avenue from that point, or the trucks and stages and hackmen of Broadway? A. Oh, I think they would prefer Broadway; because I have noticed when I have been on the wagon riding to a fire through Broadway-one case I have in recollection very clearly-I was in the Great Jones Street house one day, and there was a fire alarm way down town in Beekman Street; it was a second alarm; there had been a previous fire, and the officer in control of the Great Jones Street house knew that the first wagon of what we call our No. 1 Murray Street was out, and that it was his duty to respond to that alarm, although the call was out of his legitimate district; and in that case instead of going down the avenue east from Great Jones Street-the house was located near the centre of the block between Third Avenue and Broadway -the wagon, without any hesitation, went to Broadway and went down, and I was in the wagon; it was in the latter part of the afternoon, when the street was full; but there was no delay to the wagon all the way down; the street was cleared with wonderful alacrity; I never have had any experience before in seeing just how one of our wagons or a fire apparatus would go through Broadway while the street was really crowded; but it was cleared very rapidly, and the wagon went down Broadway without any delay at all. Q. Do you recollect any occasion when you witnessed any delay to one of your wagons in runuing through the Fourth Avenue and Bowery route that I have described to you? A. The number of times that I have ridden to a fire on the wagons is very few. Q. Speaking of that particular route-answer that question, please. A. I answered your question before, that I had been on a wagon on a railroad 1933 street. Q. No; I beg your pardon; I must keep 1934 you to that question; the question is, do you recollect any occasion when you saw any of your wagons detained on the route that I have namedthrough Fourth Avenue and the Bowery? auswer that question, and only that. A. No. By Mr. Wickes : Q. Would not such a prompt clearing of Broadway, as you have described, be impossible in case of a double track railroad being placed on Broadway? A. Oh, it would be much more difficult, because a car cannot get out of the way; whereas the wagons and the wheeled vehicles can; and furthermore, there would be, I apprehend, the difficulty of en- 1935 deavoring to turn out and to guide the wagon through the street where there are tracks; the only time that I have been on a wagon, to my recollection, through a railroad street was one night going up Fourth Avenue ou one of our wagons; the street was entirely cleared, and my impression is—I am quite sure of it-the wagon took the track; there were no vehicles in the streets at all; it was in the night and the street was comparatively va cant. By Mr. Fuller: Q. If you will be kind enough to repeat where the engine house that you speak of is located in Murray 1936 Street west of Broadway? A. West of Church Street. Q. What part of Broadway do you consider the most crowded? A. I had supposed the part of Broadway below Canal Street. Q. From Chambers Street to the Battery, what part do you consider the most crowded? A. I should suppose from Chambers Street to Fulton; although I have seen the street blocked very many times below Fulton Street. Q. Then if you wanted to reach a fire in great haste, you would go into the part of Broadway that was the most blocked to get to the Battery, instead of going down Church Street direct to the Battery? A. The wagon would go to Broadway, sir. Q. Into the most crowded part of it? A. To go to the Battery the wagon would go to Broadway. Q. Is it not a fact that the fire wagons and ladder wagons have a right of way in the railroad 1937 track by law? A. I do not know. Q. Supposing there was a foot of snow in any avenue or street in the city and you were called out to attend a fire, and a railroad track was clear, would you keep to the side of the street, or take a street where there was snow, or take the railroad track? A. Probably take the railroad track. Q. Are the drivers generally expert drivers on the engines? A. They are; they are hired for that particular purpose; at least they are hired with that particular service in view. Q. Would it be impossible for you to turn out and go around a car with a foot of snow on the ground? A. Without any snow on the ground it would be possible, certainly. Q. Then you could drive around 1938 a car in case of necessity? A. Oh, of course; when they go to a fire they go as fast as their horses carry the wagon, and they would have to slacken their speed, and turn out and go around the car if necessary. Q. Supposing you would come up behind a truck heavily loaded in Broadway, or a stage, could you turn out and go around it if you were in a hurry? A. I haven't seen a case of that kind, because ordinarily when there is a fire and the fire apparatuses or our wagons are coming down, the police have cleared the street, and I have seen a good many heavy, loaded trucks turn out and take the side of the street, leaving the centre of the street for the fire apparatuses; I do not know that I ever saw one of our wagons which had to turn out; if a truck was heavily loaded and they couldn't get out of the way, of course they would turn out. Q. Haven't you seen your wagons go through the streets of New York and go around trucks and stages; have you any of your drivers here that are going to testify? 1939 By Mr. Wickes : Q. I want to ask you one question about what is known as the dry goods district; the most destructive fires and the fires at which the greatest losses bave occurred, I understand, have been in that district in this city; is that a fact? A. Some of our heaviest losses have been in the dry goods district. Q. And what is the dry goods district? A. It is what is called the district from Chambers Street to Canal Street and from Broadway to West Broadway, and also in that district generally included would 1940 also be the stores on the east side of Broadway, such as in Crosby Street or Elm Street. Q. But that district is on the line of Broadway-may be said to be on the line of Broadway? A. Yes, sir. Q. And in case of a general alarm calling out more than one district of engines, the apparatuses from up-town would invariably take Broadway, would they not, in case of a fire in the dry goods district? A. Yes, sir. Q. That would be their most direct route? A. Yes, sir; we have a lease only of our buildings in Murray Street; some of the other buildings we own-all of the others; the one in Murray Street is leased and it has been in contemplation by the underwriters several times to change 1941 the location of that house on account of the condition of Church Street and on account of the condition of Murray Street which is sometimes a good deal blocked, to get in some place where Broadway could be more easily reached and where there would not be the up-grade that there is in Murray Street, and to get on to some street like either one of these streets here this street or the one above it directly on this block, which would give that wagon nearness of connection to the dry goods district, which is one part of the city which we have, perhaps, as underwriters, as much anxiety about as we have about any other. By Mr. Bright : Q. There is no railroad in Murray Street, is there? A. No, sir. Q. (By Mr. Fuller): I asked you the question if the fire engines have the right of way in the track; I should not have said the right of way in the track but the right of way in the street; the law allows them the right of way, does it not? A. I presume so; I judge so; I do not know what the law is upon the point, but I infer so from the fact that the police always clear the street and give the fire apparatuses the right of way. By Mr. Bright: Q. Don't you think that a steam engine with horses tearing along at the rate of ten miles an 1942 1943 hour, and the bell-ringing would create a right-ofway almost in any street? A. I think I should get out of the way if I was in a wagon. Mr. Evarts: Right away? The Witness: Yes. JAMES A. SILVEY, called as a witness on behalf of the City, being duly sworn, testified as follows: By Mr. Wickes : Q. What is your business? A. Fire insurance. A. 115 Broadway. Q How long have you been engaged in that business? A. Twenty-four years. Q. What companies do you 1944 represent? A. I am the Secretary of the GermanAmerican Insurance Company. Q. Are you also a member of the Fire Patrol Committee? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you co-operate with the members of the Committee and co-operate with the Fire Department of this city? A. Yes, sir. Q. Act with them? A. Yes, sir. Q. Upon all matters relating to underwriters and of general public importance connected with conflagrations and the extinguishment of fires? A. Yes, sir; not as to the extinguishment of it; that is, of course, within the control only of the Fire Department, as a rule. Q. But in the other respects that I mentioned, you do co-operate with the Fire Department? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you 1945 are familiar, are you not, with the operation and management of our City Fire Department? A. Yes, sir; to some extent. Q. Did you hear the testimony of Mr. Coit? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you concur with the views that he has expressed relative to the proper moving of apparatuses from the station houses to the seat of a fire and to the necessity of a thoroughfare, open and unimpeaded, for such moving? A. Yes, sir. Q. And of the utility of Broadway as it at present exists for such purposes? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would a railroad of any description in Broadway in your opinion interfere with the prompt fire service? A. Yes, sir, I think it would. Q. Will you briefly state your reasons why? A. It would be an obstruction which does not now exist; I believe that the vehicles that run on Broadway now, every day, as we see them, can be and are easily moved in case the thoroughfare is necessary |