PARAGRAPH 451-BOOTS AND SHOES. Mr. PAYNE. If they lived on the same plane as you do here, they would need the same wages, would they not? Mr. TOBIN. If they lived on the same plane as we do here, or tried to, they would find themselves running very short. Mr. PAYNE. They would need your standard of wages? Mr. TOBIN. They would need our standard of wages. Mr. PAYNE. When you have arbitrations, do the arbitrators take into consideration the fact whether the manufacturer is able to make both ends meet in order to pay you those wages? Mr. TOBIN. Yes; the manufacturers with whom we have contracts will quote prices accordingly. Mr. McElwain will not let investigators into his factory to get figures. Mr. PAYNE. That is why you are interested in the tariff here? Mr. KITCHIN. Speaking of this $10 that the laboring man in England gets, which is the same as $16 to a man here, Mr. Payne had you say that is on account of the higher standard of living here. Let us see about that. Will not that $10 there buy more clothes and more bread and more underwear and more hats than the $16 the man gets here? Mr. TOBIN. He will not buy any hats at all. The foreign shoe worker does not wear a hat. Mr. KITCHIN. Well, suppose he does. He wears clothes, does he not? Mr. TOBIN. Yes, of the very cheapest kind. Mr. KITCHIN. And he eats sugar and meat, does he not? Mr. TOBIN. Very little meat and not much sugar. Mr. KITCHIN. But he really saves more than the man here does, does he not? Mr. TOBIN. I do not know that he does. Mr. KITCHIN. Do you not know as a fact, that in England, where there is no tariff upon wearing apparel and such things as that, as well as food, that $10 goes about as far as $16 does here? Mr. TOBIN. Yes; I dare say it does, but it does not go far enough. Mr. KITCHIN. That has nothing to do with the standards of living. Mr. TOBIN. In Free Trade England the standard of living is so much lower than the standard of living in this protective country, that we do not want a free trade living here. Mr. KITCHIN. If the English standard of living is so low and deplorable, why do not the English laboring men come over here and take the place of the laboring men here, and why is it that these American laboring men, as you have just testified, go to England? Mr. TOBIN. They do come over here. Mr. KITCHIN. How many English laboring men-English born, now, born in Great Britain-are employed in the mills of Mr. McElwain, or what proportion? Mr. TOBIN. I do not know. Mr. KITCHIN. Is it not less than 1 per cent? Mr. TOBIN. I do not suppose there is 5 per cent of Mr. McElwain's employees who can speak the English language. Mr. KITCHIN. Not 5 per cent can speak the English language? So the largest proportion of Mr. McElwain's employees come from the PARAGRAPH 451-BOOTS AND SHOES. high protective-tariff countries, such as Germany, Italy, Greece, etc., and not from free-trade England? Mr. TOBIN. Very few. Mr. KITCHIN. Don't you know that if conditions were as deplorable as you picture them in free-trade England that some of those fellows would come in, but instead of that they are coming from the hightariff countries? Mr. TOBIN. I am not speaking of free-trade England at all. Mr. KITCHIN. Well, what European country? Let us get at that now. Mr. TOBIN. Italians, Armenians, Greeks, Poles, and Swedes. Mr. KITCHIN. So you will really take it back about free-trade England, or you say you were not referring to England a while ago? Mr. TOBIN. I say that the standards of living in European countries, regardless of whether in a protective-tariff country or a freetrade country, is so much lower than in this country, that we do not want to experiment with what we have now. Mr. KITCHIN. That is excepting England, is it not? Mr. TOBIN. No. Mr. KITCHIN. All right, then, but you do admit that there is not 1 per cent of the employees in Mr. McElwain's factory who came from England. Mr. TOBIN. I do not say that. Mr. KITCHIN. You said that 95 per cent could not speak the English language. Mr. TOBIN. I said not more than 5 per cent could speak the English language. Mr. KITCHIN. So that 95 per cent are foreigners that did not come from England, are they not? Mr. TOBIN. Well, that has been proved by your illustration. What have I got to answer? Mr. KITCHIN. I am not proving anything; I am getting at the facts. Mr. TOBIN. What do you want me to answer? Mr. KITCHIN. I want you to answer this: You said that if we remove the tariff of 10 per cent, the manufacturer would take that as a pretext to try to cut your wages. Is that true? Mr. TOBIN. Yes; absolutely true, as applied to nonunion factories. Mr. KITCHIN. So that the only thing you want is simply to prevent them from having a pretext to fight your union, is it not? Mr. TOBIN. Oh, not entirely so. To-day the foreign workman is not necessarily a shoe worker, but any foreign man with two hands and a brain can come into this country and apply himself in the average shoe factory and within a few weeks become a skilled workman, because of the small subdivisions into which that trade is divided. What we are protesting against is, in addition to this free trade in labor that you have imposed upon us, the free trade in the product of the foreign manufacturers will be added to what we suffer from now, and these shoes that are manufactured abroad will come here and crush us, plus the foreign labor which comes in here now. PARAGRAPH 451-BOOTS AND SHOES. Mr. KITCHIN. Is this foreign labor that is employed in Mr. McElwain's factory in the union? Mr. TOBIN. Not so that you could notice it. Mr. KITCHIN. Well, does not the union contain a large proportion of the employees in the shoe factories generally? Mr. TOBIN. It is less than one-third. Mr. KITCHIN. A large proportion of those workers can not speak the English language? Mr. TOBIN. We have all kinds of languages. Mr. KITCHIN. Answer that. You are the head of the union, and I ask you if it is not a fact that a large percentage, more than 50 per cent of the employees in the shoe factories in New England and in the North are of foreign birth? Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. And what proportion can not read or write or speak the English language? Mr. TOBIN. A very large percentage of them can not, and they are of recent importation. Mr. KITCHIN. Of recent importation? Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. So that the tariff has not had any effect in keeping out pauper labor to compete with your American labor, has it? Mr. TOBIN. Oh, no; there never has been a tariff on labor. Mr. KITCHIN. Your trouble is with the free trade in labor, free trade in Italians, free trade in Poles, and free trade in different kinds of pauper labor coming from all over the world; that is the real trouble, is it not? Mr. TOBIN. I want to say to you that the foreign workman who comes here, after he has been here a very short time is dressed as well as the American. Mr. KITCHIN. But he is an American laborer then. Mr. TOBIN. He imbibes the American standard of living, except when they go to the mill towns, the textile mills. In the shoe factories there he gets advantage of the ideas that they have and their standard of life, and the manufacturer in search of cheap labor, a manufacturer of shoes, will strike a mill town, if possible, where they have been in the habit of making textile articles at a low rate of wages and at a low standard of living. Mr. KITCHIN. The men working in these shoe factories who belong to your union wear hats in this country, do they not? Mr. TOBIN. Oh, yes. Mr. KITCHIN. And they wear clothes here, do they not? Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. Sometimes they wear shirts and collars, do they not? Mr. TOBIN. Always. Mr. KITCHIN. Sometimes they wear an overcoat; every now and then? Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. And underwear? Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. And sometimes they buy sugar, do they not? PARAGRAPH 451-BOOTS AND SHOES. Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. And meat? Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. And fish? Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. Sometimes they buy crockery ware? Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. Sometimes they eat out of some utensils, do they not? Mr. TOBIN. Yes, Mr. KITCHIN. Did you ever let them understand that there was as much as from 90 per cent to 100 per cent tariff or tax on the clothes they wear, and from 40 per cent to 75 per cent upon the hats they buy, and 25 per cent to 35 per cent upon the meat and fish they eat, 60 per cent upon the sugar, and from 40 to 75 per cent upon the cutlery and crockery ware that they must have; and that when they are crying for a small 10 per cent tariff on shoes, they ought also to cry against this high tariff on practically everything they wear and eat; and that if the laboring men would come here and help reduce the tariff, they would get the benefit of the reduction of the tariff on all these articles of necessity that they have to buy? Mr. TOBIN. That line of reasoning would be excellent if it were sound. Mr. KITCHIN. I am not reasoning at all, but I am asking you if you let them understand that? Mr. TOBIN. No; because they are not facts. Mr. KITCHIN. Is there not a 90 per cent tariff on clothes? Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. That is a fact, is it not? Mr. TOBIN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. Did you ever tell them that they would have to pay that? Mr. TOBIN. We have told them if we could tell them anything at all. Mr. KITCHIN. They can not understand English, and therefore you Idid not tell them? Mr. TOBIN. It is pretty hard to tell them. Mr. KITCHIN. Did you ever tell them that they must pay 2 cents tariff tax on every pound of sugar that they have to buy? Mr. FORDNEY. Well, that would not be telling the truth, if you said that. Mr. KITCHIN. That is a fact, notwithstanding that my friend, Mr. Fordney, says otherwise. Mr. FORDNEY. No; it is not a fact. I beg to differ with you. Mr. KITCHIN. The trouble about the business is that they know so little about our language and the tariff and its workings, that they just follow some leader, like you, for instance. You say that they do not know anything about these matters, about the taxes they must pay on everything they eat and wear-they do not understand that. Mr. TOBIN. I have tried to tell this committee that the retail price will not be reduced. Mr. KITCHIN. Perhaps if they did understand they would not send you down here to speak for them in favor of a protective tariff. PARAGRAPH 451-BOOTS AND SHOES. Mr. TOBIN. I think most of them, after they are here some time, "get wise," as the saying is, and they understand that the tariff has very little to do with the retail price. I am not here to defend the American Sugar Co., or any other sugar company, but I notice that whenever there is a slight fluctuation in the price of sugar, the retailer knows about it and the consumer gets the benefit of it. I buy sugar for use in my family, and sometimes it is 5 cents a pound, sometimes it is 5, and occasionally it is 4 cents a pound; but there is no such fluctuation in garments or shoes or any other things. Mr. KITCHIN. You think that if the laboring men in this union could understand English and had this tariff explained to them on sugar, they would be asking for free sugar, do you not? Mr. TOBIN. It might be. Mr. KITCHIN. Don't you think that, if they could understand the English language, you could explain to them that the woolen clothes and underwear which protect them from the rigid climate of the North is taxed from 60 to 100 per cent they would be clamoring for a reduction of the tariff that they might get them a little cheaper? Mr. TOBIN. I dare say they would, because I know, as a matter of fact, that many of the spellbinders in the recent election told them that. Mr. KITCHIN. Oh, but they could not understand it. Mr. KITCHIN. And they voted that way, did they not? Mr. KITCHIN. But only 5 per cent of them could vote. Mr. TOBIN. Well, but the 5 per cent was enough to elect in many cases. Mr. KITCHIN. We fooled only 5 per cent and you fooled the other 95 per cent. Mr. TOBIN. Five per cent would make the difference between success and failure in election contests. Mr. KITCHIN. You voted in the last election for protection, did you not? Mr. TOBIN. No, sir; I did not. Mr. KITCHIN. Well, I am glad you did not. Now, we are commencing to agree. Mr. TOBIN. But I am not going to ask you how you voted, nor am I going to leave the impression that I voted for free trade. I will tell the truth. I did not vote at all. Mr. KITCHIN. Well, you just stood with the other 95 per cent of your union, of these laborers; you were in the majority and you did right. You are qualified to vote, are you not? Mr. TOBIN. I beg your pardon? Mr. KITCHIN. You are really qualified to vote, are you not? Mr. TOBIN. Oh, yes; I have a franchise, and I am registered and qualified to vote. I am afraid that my 10 minutes have expired. Mr. HARRISON. Mr. Tobin, you may proceed with your statement now. Mr. LONGWORTH. Mr. Tobin, are you sure Mr. Kitchin understood you to say that 95 per cent of the shoe workers in New England could not speak the English language? |