Mr. UNDERWOOD. I mean at the existing prices. Of course, I recognize that the prices can go up and bring in a great deal of paper. I mean considering the question from what the normal prices have been in the past and the normal importations?

Mr. HASTINGS. No; I do not think it is prohibitive. I consider an overproduction in another country that wanted to sell at a dumping price can come in, and does.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. But the normal condition of the market, with the present duty, is not inviting to the shipment of paper into this country?

Mr. HASTINGS. Not at the market price, no; but there is paper which might come in under a clause which would not forbid dumping. Mr. UNDERWOOD. Of course, we are considering the proposition from what actually is taking place, not from what might happen. Mr. GRIGGS. Has it ever happened?

Mr. HASTINGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIGGS. It has happened?

Mr. HASTINGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIGGS. And broke the price of paper over here?

Mr. HASTINGS. There would not be enough to come in to break the price, but we paper manufacturers believe that to let down the bars so any country that is better situated through natural conditions to compete with us, and with the cheaper labor, that it would not be many years before the business would increase so that you would practically put the mills of this country out of business.

Mr. GRIGGS. Where are the importations from?
Mr. HASTINGS. Canada, Norway, and Sweden.
Mr. GRIGGS. There is no cheaper labor in Canada?
Mr. HASTINGS. Yes, sir; a little cheaper labor.

Mr. GRIGGS. One of the mill men here swore that they had higher labor?

Mr. HASTINGS. I did not hear that statement, but we have a report from the select committee.

Mr. GRIGGS. I said "swore; " I meant, stated the fact.

Mr. HASTINGS. If he was a paper manufacturer, it would not have made any difference between swore and stated.

Mr. GRIGGS. I just wanted to keep the record straight, that is all. Mr. CLARK. You have an idea that a paper manufacturer is more likely to tell the truth than other people?

Mr. HASTINGS. No, sir; not necessarily.

Mr. CLARK. Your remark, then, was supposed to be humorous?
Mr. HASTINGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. Are you one of the 24 men who were fined $2,000 each?
Mr. HASTINGS. No, sir.

Mr. CLARK. Who were those gentlemen?

Mr. HASTINGS. I do not know."

Mr. CLARK. Do you undertake to tell this committee that you do not know the men who were prosecuted and fined $2,000 apiece by the court?

Mr. HASTINGS. I certainly do. I might tell you an individual here and there.

Mr. CLARK. What were they fined for?

Mr. HASTINGS. They were accused of some kind of collusion.
Mr. CLARK. Collusion about what?

Mr. HASTINGS. As to selling or controlling the price, or something of that kind. I do not know what.

Mr. CLARK. They were prosecuted under the antitrust law. Is that true or not?

Mr. HASTINGS. I tell you I do not know. As an association they have no membership in our association. There may have been individuals who belonged.

Mr. CLARK. Any of them here?

Mr. HASTINGS. I do not know.

Mr. CLARK. What has become of the International Paper Company?

Mr. HASTINGS. It is still in existence.

Mr. CLARK. Do you undertake to say that they do not control or fix the price of paper in the United States?

Mr. HASTINGS. I certainly do.

Mr. CLARK. How much is paper selling for now?

Mr. HASTINGS. Whose paper?

Mr. CLARK. Anybody's paper.

Mr. HASTINGS. My paper is selling for 2.65, 2.75, and 3 cents.
Mr. CLARK. How much is that a ton?

Mr. HASTINGS. Anywhere from $50 to $60 a ton.

Mr. CLARK. How much was it selling for when the Dingley bill was passed?

Mr. HASTINGS. In what year?

Mr. CLARK. In 1897.

Mr. HASTINGS. I know that some paper sold as low as 1.50 and 1.60

cents.

Mr. CLARK. The effect of the Dingley bill has been to put the price up from $32 or $33 to $55?

Mr. HASTINGS. I do not consider it did;

Mr. CLARK. It went up?

Mr. HASTINGS. Yes, sir; so did wheat.

sir.

Mr. CLARK. The time it went up coincides with the life of the Dingley bill?

Mr. HASTINGS. Very well.

Mr. CLARK. There was no earthly connection with the two?

Mr. HASTINGS. Not necessarily.

Mr. CLARK. What did put it up?

Mr. HASTINGS. The law of supply and demand.

Mr. CLARK. The law of supply and demand?

Mr. HASTINGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. What made you shut down your factories and create a paper famine?

Mr. HASTINGS. I did not.

Mr. CLARK. Did anybody?

Mr. HASTINGS. I do not know.

Mr. CLARK. What did you say put the price of paper up?

Mr. HASTINGS. The law of supply and demand.

Mr. CLARK. How does it happen that you sell your paper $10 a

ton less abroad than you sell it to the paper men in the United States? Mr. HASTINGS. I do not.

Mr. CLARK. Does anybody?

Mr. HASTINGS. Not that I know of.

Mr. CLARK. Did you ever hear of it being done?

Mr. HASTINGS. No, sir.

Mr. CLARK. Do you export paper?

Mr. HASTINGS. Not this year.

Mr. CLARK. Who does export paper?

Mr. HASTINGS. I presume the International Paper Company and probably the W. H. Parsons Company.

Mr. CLARK. Are you a part of the International Paper Company? Mr. HASTINGS. I am not.

Mr. CLARK. Did the International Paper Company pick you to represent them?

Mr. HASTINGS. No, sir. I represent the American Paper and Pulp Association.

Mr. CLARK. Is it true that these paper concerns pay lower wages than the laboring men of like class receive in other occupations in the United States.

Mr. HASTINGS. I do not think it is. I think that that statement is incorrect for a similar class of labor.

Mr. CLARK. How much revenue does the paper business bring into the United States Treasury?

Mr. HASTINGS. In 1907 it brought in something like $15,000,000 or $17,000,000; but I do not mean that that was the amount of paper imported.

Mr. CLARK. How much revenue?

Mr. HASTINGS. It is roughly, perhaps, 15 per cent of that.

Mr. CLARK. Is not that rate about prohibitive?

Mr. HASTINGS. No, sir.

Mr. CLARK. If all the schedules, Mr. Hastings, brought in as little revenue in proportion to the amount of business, then the United States Government would have to look to some other source of revenue besides the tariff?

Mr. HASTINGS. I do not know. I am not a tariff expert. I can not tell what the income is.

Mr. CLARK. You know the Government spends about a billion dollars a year?

Mr. HASTINGS. I know they spend a lot of money.

Mr. CLARK. Do you not know they spend about a billion dollars? Mr. HASTINGS. I have seen it stated as something like a billion dollars.

Mr. CLARK. You do not take any interest in that?

Mr. HASTINGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. I think you are better informed than you seem to be. The question is, if all the other industries in the United States brought as little revenue to the Federal Government as the paper business does, in proportion to the volume of business, then the revenue derived from the tariff would be infinitesimal, almost; it would hardly be worth considering?

Mr. HASTINGS. How about the things we import that go into

paper?

Mr. CLARK. That is just it. Is there a prohibitive tariff on what you use?

Mr. HASTINGS. Prohibitive as far as we are concerned.

Mr. CLARK. There is no revenue hardly comes into the Government from the paper business?

Mr. HASTINGS. There seems to be.

Mr. CLARK. Well, how much?

Mr. HASTINGS. Fifteen per cent or 20 per cent on practically $20,000,000 of imports during the year 1907.

Mr. CLARK. There was $20,000,000 of paper imported that year; how much last year?

Mr. HASTINGS. That is the year ending June 30, 1907; I have no figures after that.

Mr. CLARK. It amounted to about $196,000.

Mr. HASTINGS. The income to the Government?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HASTINGS. It must have been over that.

Mr. CLARK. Do you not think that you could stand a shaving down of one-half of this tariff so that the Government could get some revenue out of this business?

Mr. HASTINGS. No, sir.

Mr. CLARK. If everybody else reasoned that way where would the Government get its revenue?

Mr. HASTINGS. From some of the luxuries, I imagine.

Mr. CLARK. On luxuries. If we put the price up on luxuries so we keep them out we would not get any revenue on luxuries? Mr. HASTINGS. They are pretty well up.

Mr. CLARK. You are a man a good deal above the average of intelligence

Mr. HASTINGS (interrupting). I thank you.

Mr. CLARK (continuing). And you have a packed audience who laugh at anything you say.

If the rate is so high that it shuts out the stuff, the Government does not get any revenue?

Mr. HASTINGS. Certainly not.

Mr. CLARK. And if all these other tariff schedules were as high in proportion as this one is the Government could not get enough revenue out of the whole tariff system to run for a month?

Mr. HASTINGS. You make the statement and I am not going over your figures.

I wish to say that I am the representative of a lot of manufacturers. You speak of a "packed audience." There are a number of other manufacturers here. I understand Mr. Norris represents all the publishers in the United States.

Mr. CLARK. Mr. Norris happens to be one man as against the crowd here.

Mr. HASTINGS. He has the combination of newspapers back of him. Mr. CLARK. They do not happen to be here.

Mr. HASTINGS. They are represented by one man.

Mr. CLARK. You think that the uniform price of paper in the United States is an accidental occurrence?

Mr. HASTINGS. There is no uniformity of price, as far as I know.
Mr. CLARK. Do you not know that that is practically the case?
Mr. HASTINGS. No, sir; I do not know that that is practically the

case.

Mr. CLARK. That is all. I can not hope to get much information. from you.

Mr. HASTINGS. I am ready to answer any questions, Mr. Clark. Mr. RANDELL. How much does it cost to make this news print paper?

Mr. HASTINGS. The cost is different at different mills.

Mr. RANDELL. How much does it cost in the mills you operate?

Mr. HASTINGS. I can not tell you offhand to the cent, but I refer you to my testimony before the select committee which is printed where the cost per pound is given by decimals.

Mr. RANDELL. I care nothing about the decimals, I want to get at the facts. How much does it cost on an average to make news print paper?

Mr. HASTINGS. Perhaps at this time-it depends upon whether a man has his own wood or has to buy his wood pulp.

Mr. RANDELL. Do you really want to tell me the cost?

Mr. HASTINGS. I would like to know when you want the cost.

Mr. RANDELL. If you were to sell paper at so much' f. o. b. mills, what would be the average price of that paper now?

Mr. HASTINGS. To-day?

Mr. RANDELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HASTINGS. At my mill it would probably cost 2 cents. At another mill it might cost more than that.

Mr. RANDELL. A little over $40 a ton?

Mr. HASTINGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANDELL. That is the paper you sell for $55 or $60 a ton?
Mr. HASTINGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANDELL. And the cost you named to me is all the expense, and the balance would be profit?

Mr. HASTINGS. That is not so. Do you want to know what we figure the cost of paper, what we figure for depreciation on the plant and the interest we have invested?

Mr. RANDELL. Not counting any depreciation on the plant.

Mr. HASTINGS. How are you going to arrive at the cost? Who is going to pay for the depreciation?

Mr. RANDELL. What I want to get at is the difference in the cost of manufacture, the daily or monthly output, and the price that you get for the product.

Mr. HASTINGS. I do not think that is a fair question because what we get to-day might be an entirely different proposition next month. Mr. RANDELL. Outside of the depreciation and value of your plant, would the $40 a ton represent what that paper cost you now, the paper which you sell for $55 or $60 a ton?

Mr. HASTINGS. Less the freight and cartage.

Mr. RANDELL. There is no freight about it, it is delivered f. o. b.? Mr. HASTINGS. I was not giving you the price delivered on board. Mr. RANDELL. I said f. o. b.?

Mr. HASTINGS. You are coupling the cost price with the delivery price, without making any allowance for freight.

Mr. RANDELL. Do you mean to say that you did not give the price at the mill?

Mr. HASTINGS. The price at the mill and also the price delivered, but where is the freight coming in?

Mr. RANDELL. Did you not say that the price that the paper cost you f. o. b. at mill was 2.2 cents?

Mr. HASTINGS. Two and one-eighth cents.

Mr. RANDELL. Did you not state that it was all profit, except what would be the deterioration in the value of the plant? You did not say anything about freight?