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Mr. LYMAN. Yes; that is in one of the statements. It is rather incomplete.

The CHAIRMAN. The last column in that statement ?
Mr. LYMAN. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Does that represent the wages in several mills?

Mr. Lyman. That is fairly representative, I understand. We haven't got it absolutely and completely.

The CHAIRMAN. What about this mill of Sir William Van Horne's that we hear so much about?

Mr. Lyman. That is the Laurentide Paper Company, at Grand Mere, on the St. Maurice River. It was started originally by United States capital, and is the one that General Alger had an interest in.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is it located ?
Mr. LYMAN. At Grand Mere, on the St. Maurice River.
The CHAIRMAN. What part of Canada is that?
Mr. LYMAN. It is in Quebec, about the central part.

The CHAIRMAN. Sir William has made some statement about wages paid in the mill, hasn't he; or some statement has been published purporting to have come from him?

Mr. LYMAN. There has been a statement from that mill as to wages, but I do not know whether Sir William Van Horne has ever made any statement in regard to wages or not.

The CHAIRMAN. And that statement purported to show that the wages were greater in the Canadian mills than in the American mills?

Mr. LYMAN. I say I am not aware of any statement made by Sir William Van Horn.

The CHAIRMAN. You said that there was a statement published. That statement that you saw published purported to show greater wages paid in that mill than in the American mills, did it not?

Mr. LYMAN. I do not think it made any comparison.

The CHAIRMAN, I noticed something in Mr. Norris's brief about it, some general statement, and I would like to know the facts about it

Mr. LYMAN. We have no very good data as to the wages paid in the Canadian mills. It is not complete.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think you can get those figures for me?

Mr. Lyman. We will make another effort. We have tried to get them, but have not succeeded in getting the information completely; but we will make it a point to do so if we can.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you stated in your brief all the differences that occur to you in favor of the Canadian mills lowering the cost of production below that of the American mill?

Mr. LYMAN. I do not think I understand that question.

The CHAIRMAN. You have stated in your brief the differences in cost of labor, cost of stumpage, etc. Have you stated all those differences that have occurred to you in favor of the Canadian mill?

Mr. LYMAN. I did not attempt to go into the small ones. I thought the larger factors were enough to be determinative.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there no other differences?

Mr. LYMAN. There are differences one way or another, some against us and some in favor of us, and quite different at different mills, the different mills in our company, and the different mills in Canada.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not go into the difference in freight?
Mr. Lyman. Freight on paper?

The CHAIRMAN. The freight on pulp wood or freight on anything.

Mr. Lyman. Enough to satisfy myself that it was almost negligible; that is, the difference in the freight upon the finished product from the Canadian mills and the American mills.

The Chairman. You could not give us the average freight paid per ton on pulp wood, bringing it to your mill and bringing it to the Canadian mill, and the average amount per ton paid on the products of the two mills?

Mr. Lyman. I attempted to give the averages—I did give the average rates of freight paid on our wood of $3.25, but you might say that there is no such thing as “average freight” to the Canadian mills, and you would have to have a complete statement in order to get a true average.

The ChairMAN. Do you mean to say that they haven't any average freight rate from the Canadian mills to New York or Boston ?

Mr. Lyman. Quebec is a pretty big province, and they have pulpwood mills that are away up at Lake St. John, north of Quebec, and away out West in the western part of Ontario; but I can get rates that are typical.

The CHAIRMAN. With their mills located in those places so far away from the market, you would not have much competition anyway; they would rather sell nearest home.

Mr. LYMAN. Oh, no.
The CHAIRMAN. Where do they sell?

Mr. LYMAN. They sell in Europe, in Australia, and some of it here. The CHAIRMAN. Do they sell it in the United States ?

Mr. LYMAN. Some of it here. I gave the amounts that they sell here.

Mr. CALDERHEAD. Do you sell paper in Kansas and Nebraska ?
Mr. LYMAN. No; we do not get out as far as that.
Mr. CALDERHEAD. How far West do you go!

Mr. LYMAN. No farther than St. Louis, I think. We have had some orders out there, but we lost them in competition.

Mr. CalderHEAD. What price do you sell No. 2 print paper for as far west as St. Louis?

Mr. Lyman. We only have one grade, and the price in St. Louis to-day would be based probably on about 21 cents New York delivery, plus the freight to St. Louis. That is my general impression. I am not connected with the sales department.

Mr. CALDERHEAD. Do you know the Carpenter Paper Company, of Chicago?

Mr. Lyman. Yes; of Omaha ? They used to be in Omaha.

Mr. CALDERHEAD. Do you come in competition with that company anywhere?

Mr. LYMAN. I do not know whether they would get east as far as we get west or not. I do not think they come far enough east to reach us. They are jobbers.

Mr. CALDERIIEAD. Would you sell paper in 500-ton lots as low as $2.08 ?

Mr. LYMAN. Where? Out there?
Mr. CALDERHEAD. In St. Louis.
Mr. LYMAN. No.
Mr. CALDERHEAD. Or Kansas City?


Mr. LYMAN. Not to-dav.
Mr. CALDERHEAD. Or Chicago ?

Mr. Lyman. Not to-day. I do not think anybody could get it today for that. We could not afford to.

Mr. CALDERHEAD. The Carpenter Paper Company made a contract for 500 tons with one paper in my State at $2.08 a hundred recently.

Mr. Lyman. It probably came from a western mill, did it not, considerably nearer than we are to them? The rate becomes prohibitive when you get out that far.

Mr. CALDERHEAD. Is there any print paper selling at that price anywhere in the eastern part of the United States!

Mr. LYMAN. $2.08?

Mr. LYMAN. I do not think there are any quotations being made now as low as that. There was some paper sold at auction at $2.05 and $2.06, and thereabouts, f. o. b. mill. If anybody bought it at the mill and wanted to use it right there at hand, it would not cost them more than $2.08.

The CHAIRMAN. A year ago quite a number of newspaper people had contracts that ran from three to five years at a low rate, did they not, and they expired ? Mr. LYMAN. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. So there was quite a difference in the price of Mr. LYMAN. Yes, mostly.

The Chairman. For instance, the New York Times and the Staats Zeitung had old contracts that expired. They expired, I believe, last spring, did they not?

Mr. LYMAN. I believe the Staats-Zeitung has been making yearly contracts; I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. And after that the price was higher?

Mr. LYMAN. Yes. They had had pretty low contracts. They probably made their contracts at the very most favorable time.

The CHAIRMAN. A gentleman connected with one of those papers told me last summer that he had lower rates than even some of the paper publishers mentioned in Mr. North's reports; he got the paper lower still. However, I want to ask you this question: Can you tell us what proportion of the entire amount of timber cut in the United States is turned into paper ?

Mr. LYMAN. As I have figured it out from government reports, it is less than 1.6 per cent.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that a conservative figure?

Mr. Lyman. It is conservative if the government figures are conservative. It is based purely on oflicial figures. It is simply a matter of arithmetic.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any statistics that show that?
Mr. LYMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Published by the Department of Commerce and Labor ?

Mr. LYMAN. There is one pamphlet published by the Forestry Service called “The Drain on the Forests," I think, in which they give what the total consumption of wood is in the United States. They figure it at about 100 billion feet; and the domestic pulp-wood consumption for the same year was about 1,500,000,000.

The CHAIRMAN. That is where you get the ratio of 1.6 per cent?
Mr. LYMAN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. That is all.

Mr. CALDERHEAD. Another question. At the same time that this contract was made for 500 tons of paper at $2.08 contracts were made by another paper company for the supply of paper for the next year—this coming year-at $2.14; and in another newspaper office in my State, when I made that statement, they showed me correspondence in which they were tendering them paper at $2.85 for Chicago paper and $2.87" for paper from Buffalo, and contended that that was the lowest rate that they could make. How does it come that there is such a wide range in prices?

Mr. LYMAN. How recently was the last quotation? What was the difference in the period ?

Mr. CALDERHEAD. The last week in October.

Mr. LYMAN. And were they both made at the same time, or practically the same time, or was there a period of six months in between!

Mr. CALDERTIEAD. Oh, no; the other one was made the second week in August. The contract for $2.14 was made the second week in August. The contract at $2.08 was made between that time and the last week in October; and the offer of paper at $2.85 and $2.87 was in the last week in October. It all occurred within that short time. How did it come that there was such a wide range in the prices?

Mr. LYMAN. There has been a very great curtailment of production during the last three or four months.

Mr. CALDERIIEAD. But how did it come that in sixty days there was such a wide range in prices?

Mr. Lyman. It may be that they had not felt the effect of the drought in this particular mill by August; they may have had a surplus and not known how long the drought was going to continue. They may not have realized that it was going to be phenomenal, and may lave made a low price accordingly. By the time they got to October

Mr. CALDERHEAD. Do not misunderstand me. The price of $2.14 was made the second week in August, and the price of $2.08 was made sometime about the 1st of October.

Mr. LYMAN. I thought you were talking about a price of $2.85, or something like that.

Mr. CALDERHEAD. And the price of $2.85 was made the last week in October.

Mr. LYMAN. I have no doubt that the explanation is perfectly simple to anybody who knows the facts; but I do not know why it was. I do not think I am qualified to guess about a situation when I know so little about it.

Mr. CALDERHEAD. If there could be such a range within sixty days on a staple article of that kind, what good does the tariff do?

Mr. LYMAN. Of course it goes without saying that the tariff having remained the same, there could be no effect of the tariff on that. That is perfectly patent.

Mr. Griggs. The exportations of paper were, in quantity, 120,090,000 pounds, valued at $3,514,281* in the last year—the year to which this book refers.

Mr. Lyman. The exportations of paper?

Mr. GRIGgs. Yes. Can you explain to me how they could do that!

Mr. Lyman. Foreign business is generally based on pretty long contracts; and the conditions that prevail when you make your contracts for shipment to Australia, for instance, may be entirely different from the conditions which prevail when you are making your final deliveries.

Mr. GRIGgs. In round numbers, 49,000,000 pounds were exported to Canada.

Mr. LYMAN. Exported to Canada ?
Mr. GRIGGS. Yes.
Mr. LYMAN. No; not from the United States.
Mr. GRIGGS. 48,810,734 pounds.
Mr. LYMAN. Of paper exported to Canada?
Mr. Griggs. Yes, sir; printing paper at that.

Mr. LYMAN. I do not think that is accurate. Forty-nine million pounds is 25,000 tons; and if it is printing paper it is not news paper. There is no news paper exported to Canada.

Mr. Griggs. It is a printing paper, which includes news paper, magazine, book, plate, lithograph, music, and other kinds of paper.

Mr. Lyman. It may be some of those things—hanging paper, or lithograph paper, or something of that kind.

Mr. GRIGGS. It does not include that.

Mr. LYMAN. But it is not news paper. I do not think there has been any news paper sent to Canada at all. They have a duty of 15 per cent against us.

Mr. GRIGGS. You think you can not compete with them, now, with that duty ?

Mr. Lyman. I know that when we fear their competition here, we are not likely to be in a position to go over there with our paper.

Mr. GRIGGs. Do you not think you are a little too much afraid of each other on each side of the line? I know that when I go over to Canada they are very much afraid of the Yankees.

Mr. LYMAN. Yes.

Mr. Griggs. And when I talk to a Yankee down here, he is very much afraid of the Canadians. Can not you and I agree on that? Let us agree on one thing to-night.

Mr. LYMAN. If you and I should fix up anything, it would have to be in the nature of a compromise. I do not think that our apprehension is ungrounded. We have a great deal at stake.

Mr. Griggs. Do you think their apprehensions ungrounded?

Mr. LYMAN. Oh, if you took the duty off there, there would be no paper going up there except through a deliberate move to kill them, which other countries used to do to us on certain commodities before we had duties on them.

Mr. GRIGGS. Suppose we took the duty off here—there would be nothing coming here except through a deliberate move to kill us, would there? The reverse is true, is it not?

Mr. LYMAN. Oh, no. They are making a surplus, a great deal more than they require, over there; and they have got to place it over here.

61318-SCHED M-09 8

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