Mr. BRASSIL. I do not believe it is. No, sir; I do not believe it is. I believe there is a good little establishment over here where they do some nice work; and they pay good prices, too.

Mr. FORDNEY. I understood you to say that that book cost $50that the work on it cost $50?

Mr. BRASSIL. No, sir; the finishing alone, the elaborating, cost $40. Mr. FORDNEY. What would it cost abroad? Have you any idea? Mr. BRASSIL. Yes, sir; $20. I have specified that.

Mr. GAINES. Are volumes like that duplicated, or is there only one of those?

Mr. BRASSIL. That is one.

Mr. GAINES. That is the work on that is put on something else? Mr. BRASSIL. No, sir. An artist would design that, for instance. The binder may have an individuality about certain things, and you might be able to read his style of binding; and if you were to see one of his books among a dozen others, you would probably be able to pick it out; but there would be no two copies alike.

Mr. FORDNEY. Did I understand you to say that they could send only two books of one kind over?

Mr. BRASSIL. They can send only two copies of one book; but they can send, in the aggregate, thousands of volumes on one shipment. Mr. FORDNEY. And they keep sending, time after time, those books until they get them all bound?

Mr. BRASSIL. Yes.

Mr. HILL. Do you mean to say that the educational institutions and colleges make a practice of sending their books abroad and having them bound, on the condition that they only bring two of a kind in a large shipment?

Mr. BRASSIL. Yes. I want to tell you this: In New York City to-day there is a binder who has an establishment in Bath, England, and he is getting books from libraries in New England and throughout this country, and shipping those books to England by the loadonly two copies of a title in a load-and when he binds them over there he brings them back here, and they are admitted free.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?

Mr. HILL. I should say that those three little words that are in the act"in good faith "-were being violated, and those people were evading the customs.

Mr. BRASSIL. I have called upon the collector of the port of New York, and have called upon the appraisers in New York, and tried to show them where it was wrong, but they said "We are living by the spirit of the law. There is the law, and we can not do anything different."

Mr. CLARK. If we put in books bound in paper, muslin, and leather-plain sheep, for instance-and fix it so there would be no juggling about it-or bound in buckram-on the free list, would that sati-fy you?

Mr. BRASSIL. Yes, sir; that is what I said here in my amendment. Mr. CLARK. I know; but you confined it to those bound in paper. Mr. BRASSIL. No, sir. My amendment was to insert after the word pamphlets" the words "bound in cloth or paper covers,” That

takes in books bound in any style of cloth, buckram, and muslin. Then come pamphlets.

Mr. CLARK. Yes; I understand. Take plain sheep, for instance. Mr. BRASSIL. Plain sheep? I believe you have a very small portion of books that come in foreign languages bound in plain sheep. Mr. CLARK. Foreign languages?

Mr. BRASSIL. This is referring to foreign languages.

Mr. CLARK. Do you not think the tariff ought to be taken off of all books?

Mr. BRASSIL. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. CLARK. Except these fancy books, which would be used by a very small class of very rich people who care more for the bindings than the books? I am talking about the books that book lovers and book users want, the kind of books that the average citizen would read-a good copy of Dickens or Scott or Smollett, or any of the rest of them-bound in plain sheep. Using the word "plain," I do not know the technicalities of the bookbinding business, but I know that that would be a combination of words that a revenue collector ought to be able to construe.

Mr. BRASSIL. The words "bound in plain sheep" eliminate so many other different styles that the collector would only be placing them under one specific thing.

Mr. CLARK. What I was trying to get at was to get cheap books for the bulk of the American people.

Mr. BRASSIL. Yes.

Mr. CLARK. That is, I was just making a compromise proposition. Mr. BRASSIL. We have no objection to your bringing in the books that are bound in that way for the poor people and the working people.

Mr. CLARK. I am a workingman, and I like to have good books myself. I would not spend money on fancy covers, though.

Mr. BRASSIL. Yes; and being a workingman, is not a well-bound cloth book good enough for an ordinary library?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; for certain classes of books. My experience is that the ordinary sized volume is just as good bound in the ordinary cloth binding as it is in leather.

Mr. BRASSIL. Yes.

Mr. CLARK. But if you take a very heavy book, I do not think it is. Mr. BRASSIL. Bind it in buckram and it will be.

Mr. CLARK. Perhaps buckram may be as good as leather.

Mr. BRASSIL. Yes.

Mr. CLARK. I have noted this. You take these encyclopedias, for instance, and I have noticed always that where they were bound in cloth they were soon shaken out of shape. I do not believe that a book as big as Webster's Dictionary would be worth carrying home, hardly, if it was bound in cloth.

Mr. BRASSIL. The style in cover is on the outside. That did not add one iota of strength to the inside of that book. That was the manner in which the book was bound on the inside of the cover, not the outside at all. If that cloth or leather book had been properly handled, and if the publishers had paid the proper price for it, it would have been bound strong enough so that it would not wobble. The trouble is with the binding on the inside.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all.

Mr. BRASSIL. No, sir: that is not all for me.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, it is getting to be laughable.

Mr. BRASSIL. No, sir; it is not laughable for me at all.
The CHAIRMAN. These conversations are becoming laughable.

Mr. BRASSIL. That is not all for me. I have spoken about sections 501, 502, and 503. Now I want to talk on section 403, these books, that are charged for at the rate of 25 per cent ad valorem. We ask that you amend that section by making a new paragraph, making it read "Books bound wholly or in part in leather, not including blank books, fifty per centum ad valorem."

Mr. GRIGGS. What is the duty now?

Mr. BRASSIL. Twenty-five per cent ad valorem. We are giving freedom to all classes of books except the extra-bound book, the book that is bound in leather, wholly or in part. We are not asking for a duty or an increase on blank books or any kind of printed matter that is bound in paper, but when it comes to those bound wholly or in part in leather, we are asking for that, and in behalf of the American workingman and in behalf of an industry that is fast dying out in this country. We feel that on account of the competition which we are having publishers are sending annually thousands and thousands of books abroad to be bound and that has been increasing yearly. They have been sending them to Europe and having them bound over there and brought in here, and they do not give the benefit of the difference in price to the buyer. No; they keep that as additional profits, and they are depriving the American workmen of his means of livelihood. They are compelling men to work half the time instead of all the time.

I have here an illustration. I want to have you gentlemen look at those books [exhibiting two books to the committee]. One of those was bound by an English concern and the other was bound by an American to imitate or match the English-bound book. The English book was bound for $1.08. The American was obliged to ask $1.75. The American's material cost 40 cents and the American's labor cost 80 cents. The material in that averaged 30 per cent duty, which the American had to pay. It consequently put the Englishman's book at a price for material of 30 cents, and his labor being only half of the price of the American's labor, it put it at 40 cents, so that for 70 cents he was able to get his material and his labor on a book on which the American was obliged to pay 40 cents for the material and 80 cents for the labor, or $1.20. That is practically a difference of 50 cents. The American could bind the book for $1.75 and the Englishman for $1.08. Now, are we justified in asking for protection? I maintain we are, on that section, and I sincerely hope, gentlemen, that after this little talk and the demonstration which I have given to you, you will comply with our request.

Mr. GRIGGS. Did you mean us to understand that one of these books was bound in America?

Mr. BRASSIL. Yes, sir; one of them was bound in America.

Mr. GRIGGS. Did they take the name of some European firm?
Mr. BRASSIL. No, sir: not at all.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. They are English books and you took the cover off of one of them and bound it here?

Mr. BRASSIL. Yes, sir.

GEORGE ROGERS, BROOKLYN, N. Y., REPRESENTING THE INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF BOOKBINDERS, CLAIMS THAT BOOKBINDERS HAVE PRACTICALLY NO PROTECTION.

SATURDAY, November 21, 1908.

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I might say here that I represent the International Brotherhood of Bookbinders, as a bookbinder. I appear here in behalf of the International Brotherhood of Bookbinders to make objection to three clauses in the tariff. In one clause it says that books over twenty years old shall come in free of duty, in another that all books in foreign languages shall come in free of duty, and in another that all books for educational purposes shall come in free of duty. You see, Mr. Chairman, we have no protection at all in the bookbinding business. These three things cover almost everything. All books over twenty years old come in free, all books in foreign languages come in free, and all books for educational purposes come in free of duty. That is the law as it stands to-day. Mr. Chairman, I will take three or four classes of bindings that come under that clause. I am only talking of bookbinding and how it affects the bookbinders of the United States. Take, first, the extra bindings, as they are called in the term of the trade here, which are good, honest leather bindings. By looking back for probably twenty years we will find that there are not one-sixth of the men employed in that business that there were twenty years ago.

The industry is dying down because our book lovers, our book publishers, and our booksellers send their books to England and France to have them done there, not because they can not have them done in the United States, but because they can have them done there cheaper; and I would like to call the attention of the gentlemen to that. In the first place, leather imported into this country for leather bindings pays the duty of 20 per cent. Papers vary from 25 to 35 per cent; binders' boards 25 per cent. I would like to call your attention to this point, that we have almost got to have the leather from England. They get almost all the raw material from England, more or less, and from France. There is a class of books sent over and done in what they call art binding and brought into this country by connoisseurs which they claim can not be done here; but, gentlemen, they go up there to an American binder and they ask him, "Here, how much will you take for that?" and when he tells them the price they say, "Oh, I can get that done in London or Paris for half that." There is a speculation attached to this. These rare books are worth money, and the older they get the more valuable they get, which you will readily see.

Six years ago my organization had more than twice the number of members we have to-day. Our membership has fallen away 50 per cent on that class of work, and we find there is more of that work being sold in America to-day than ever there has been, right through from the Atlantic to the Pacific coast. This country is flooded with that class of work; and I question very much if the purchaser of that class of work receives any benefit from it. I am rather afraid that the foreign book seller or publisher puts the price up according to the American price. From the basis of our organization I want to say to you that our minimum wages in New York City are $18, $20,

and $24 a week. Those are our minimum wages in New York City. The minimum wages in London, according to the official report, are 35 shillings, and I can not give you the French wages officially, but I put it down at about 30 francs a week, and I am high when I say that. You can readily see that a book that it will take one hundred hours to bind in France or America will cost much less there. It takes one hundred hours in France and it will take one hundred hours here, or it will not take any more time here, and it will probably take less time. But think of the difference in wages.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Were you born abroad?

Mr. ROGERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Were you educated in the business abroad?
Mr. ROGERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. What is the difference in the cost of living in London and New York?

Mr. ROGERS. I beg pardon; did you say the cost of living?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I asked, for men in your profession, what is the difference in the cost of living?

Mr. ROGERS. I have a room here which I could get for one-sixth as much there.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I am trying to get at the basis of facts.

Mr. ROGERS. It is a long time since I lived there, and I probably could not give you what it is now. Everything is cheaper there

than it is here.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I understand that; but to live with the same degree of comfort that you have in New York, what would it cost you to live in London?

Mr. ROGERS. It takes all I can earn to keep me here, and I suppose it would do the same thing there.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. You mean if you got $18 a week in London it would not be worth any more there than here?

Mr. ROGERS. Oh, yes; but what I mean is, when I work for $18 or $20 in Brooklyn I use it all in living, and if I got 30 shillings in London I would have to use it all.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Suppose they protected everything here?

Mr. ROGERS. Naturally wages would go up, and they would go up there, too.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. You are not interested in the citrus-fruit growers? Mr. ROGERS. No, sir. I am interested in books.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. You do not care whether they have any protection or not?

Mr. ROGERS. Oh, yes, I do; I beg your pardon. I do not ask you gentlemen to take the duty off of raw material. I want to allow these people to have some protection, too; but I want you to give me I have absolutely none.

some.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. If nobody else had any, would you want any? Mr. ROGERS. No, sir. If you put me on a free-trade basis, where I can live cheaper, what is the difference to me? If I can live for $9 a week, I am as well off at $9 as at $18. I do not see any difference to me.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I thought so. I did not know whether you were impressed with that or not.

Mr. ROGERS. But here is the point. We have French and English bookbinders in New York City, the finest trained binders, and they