An Hon. MEMBER.-Pahiatua. Mr. HARKNESS.-I believe we have it on the assurance of the honourable member for Wellington City (Mr. McLean) that there was no strong drink on that night. Mr. McLEAN.-That is true. · Mr. HARKNESS.-Well, the effect of that statement-that men who had been making 2s. or 3s. a day are now earning 8s. or 10s. a day under this co-operative system of work-is that we are getting the work done at 25 per cent. more than we ought to pay for it. Mr. SEDDON.-I did not say that at Palmerston North, or Pahiatua, or anywhere else. Mr. HARKNESS.-This is part of the way in which the colony is trending - that is, towards State socialism; and, whatever else socialism means, it surely means this: the inauguration of a system opposed to competition, and destructive to the individual liberty of the subject. In the words of a well-known writer,"It means that individual enterprise, and even corporate or joint-stock enterprise, which must needs be competitive, are to be replaced by a vast system of State regulation and State protection, on the principle of enabling every workman to live in comfort, if not of giving an equal share of wages and of profits to the strong and to the weak, to the clever and to the stupid, to the prudent and to the improvident, to the industrious and to the idle,-perhaps even to the sober and the drunken." Mr. SEDDON.-I never said anything of the | have been withdrawn from the colony, whereas kind. it is still in it. Now, here I am at direct variance with my honourable friend the leader of the Opposition. I maintain that the fact of capital being deposited in the banks proves beyond a doubt that people are willing to take a nominal rate of interest rather than enter into those legitimate investments which would give them a larger rate of interest. And, because that money is apparently lying idle in the banks, we are not to assume that it is really so, because the banks may be making use of it in the other colonies. But the fact remains that the people who are depositing that money in banks are taking it out of those channels of investment which would produce prosperity in the colony. I say that the fact of the increased deposits shows without doubt that capital has drawn in its horns, and is leaving the colony wherever the opportunity is afforded. Now, looking at the taxation which we put on the banks-that is, treating them more favourably than other financial concerns -the banks having such very heavy deposits, this will inevitably follow: There will be very little competition between them and the lending or mortgage companies, and the banks will become masters of the situation. Then we shall find that their rates for deposits will go down, and they will increase their discounts, and the money-market will be regulated just in proportion as the taxation weighs upon these institutions. Now a word or two in connection with the borrowing policy. That the Government intend to borrow there can be no question. I do not think any honourable member on the other side of the House who is supporting them will deny that they intend to borrow. They purpose to borrow from the insurance companies; they intend to borrow for the purchase of Native land; they propose to borrow for the purchase of land for settlement; and I do say, if they borrow in this underhand manner, it will be very injurious to the colony, for this reason: that they will be absorbing all the floating capital in the colony, and the rate of interest will increase. The Treasurer says that "capital abhors a vacuum.' Whatever that means I do not know, because many have a vacuum which capital does not seem to abhor. If, then, the Government take up this floating capital and use it for their own purposes, capital may flow in from other countries, but we shall still be using foreign capital. That being so, we might as well go at once to the London market and borrow at a less rate of interest. In conclusion, I wish to say a word about the extravagance of Ministers in regard to their travelling-expenses. We find that during the recess they have been travelling through all parts of the country. We find that their travelling-expenses have been as much as £2,000, so far as we can ascertain with accuracy. The majority of them have been for many days together absent from the seat of Government, and the departmental work has been left to the few Ministers who remained. We have been told that it was necessary that Ministers should travel about An Hon. MEMBER.-Who said that? Mr. HARKNESS.-Brodrick, in the National Review for May, 1892. There is no theory more pernicious than that a summary of which I have just read from this work. Working-men, whether they are industrious or idle, are to share alike; whether they are persevering or wanting in persistency, they are all to receive the same; whether they are clever or stupid, they are to obtain equal rates of remuneration. Now a word or two in connection with that very much vexed question of capital. I am not going to quote passages from the Statement of the Colonial Treasurer, for the country is now thoroughly conversant with them: but I maintain that he has no true appreciation of the position. I cannot think for one moment that he is desirous of unduly punishing capital, but there can be no question that the taxation which has been proposed has had a deterrent effect on capital. In other words, capital has drawn in its horns. I maintain that enterprise to a certain extent has been stifled by it, and that speculation among the people is not so ready or spontaneous as it was some little time ago. There is no doubt that people have locked up their capital, instead of entering upon those legitimate enterprises which they would otherwise be glad to venture upon. I know that the argument of the Ministry is this: that the bank-deposits show a larger increase to-day than they did twelve months ago; and hence they conclude that the proposed taxation of the Government has had no injurious influence on capital, as otherwise it would the country in order to acquire a knowledge of | prepared to grant that at all. I think that, conthe various districts. Mr. SEDDON.-Hear, hear. -- sidering that they have found the Statement unassailable and impregnable,-that there was Mr. HARKNESS.-"Hear, hear," says the nothing they could take hold of, they have Minister for Public Works. Well, I remember done very well in the circumstances. That was that when that honourable gentleman sat on the reason that we have had so little argument this side of the House, and certain proposals from that side of the House. The honourable were brought in for the continuance of the Otago gentleman who has just sat down started by Central and other works in various parts of saying that the Financial Statement was not New Zealand, the honourable gentleman pro- true; but he unmistakably failed to show what fessed to know all about these requirements of part of the Statement was not true. I think we the country. There was therefore no need for may therefore accept the Statement as true, and him to travel about the country for any such I think that the information it gives as to the purpose. And yet, Sir, we find that, in order to surplus and other matters is very satisfactory. enable them to travel through all parts of the It is very gratifying to have such information country, special trains had to be run, and put before us. The honourable member for even Sunday trains, involving the expenditure Nelson City wished this House to understand of large sums of money. Apart from the in- that the reduction in the Post Office Savingsspection of the country, Ministers have at the Bank deposits was something detrimental to the expense of the colony endeavoured to influence colony; but I think he was in error. It seems to elections. And this is what they call a self- me that the reverse conclusion may be drawn. reliant policy. A self-reliant policy, if it means It is clear evidence to my mind that the country anything, would be to trust the electors, and to settlers and other persons have more faith and leave them to judge who were the best men to confidence in the administration of the colony, choose as their representatives. A self-reliant and that therefore they are withdrawing their policy, Sir, means this: To leave the electors deposits and expending them in a manner of this colony unfettered in their choice of advantageous to themselves. As regards the representatives to leave them uninfluenced statement that we have more idle men in the in choosing whom they please. Has that colony now than we had previously, the honourbeen done? I say it has not been done. able gentleman gave no figures in support Ministers have been travelling not so much in of the assertion, and no one can expect us the interests of the country as on filibustering to accept such statements unless there is expeditions against the intelligence and in- some attempt made to prove that they are dependence of the electors. Sir, there is no correct. Another point he brought before us self-reliance in this policy; it is one of weak- was this that if there were no idle men it was ness and humiliation-a policy of "beg, borrow, only those of the right colour who were emor steal." ployed. I have heard so much about this Mr. C. H. MILLS.-Mr. Speaker, philoso-"right colour" in the House that I am getting phers in every age have long since proclaimed about "full up" of it. It seems somewhat the doctrine that it is wise to accept the inevit- ridiculous that no member attempts to define able; and I think this doctrine should be acted what the right colour is, whether white, green, on, even supposing that inevitable may mean a yellow, or what. At any rate the Liberals change from the Government to the Opposition are not green. The honourable member for benches. But from what I can see it appears Nelson City also said that the country had to me there are very few philosophical minds never pronounced in favour of the policy of the on that side of the House, or otherwise they present Government. Does the honourable would have accepted the present position gentleman mean to say that the colony never and viewed it from a more favourable stand-pronounced the death-knell of the propertypoint. What is the present position? About twelve months since we met in this chamber and discussed the Financial Statement that was then brought down by the Colonial Treasurer, and I think it was fully and well debated on that occasion, and, if I recollect aright, at that particular time a great many of those honourable gentlemen on the Opposition benches predicted we should see ruin and disaster as the natural consequences of the Treasurer's proposals being accepted. Now we have met again, and are discussing the Treasurer's second Financial Statement, and I think one and all may honestly agree with me in congratulating and complimenting that honourable gentleman on placing such a successful Statement before this House at the close of the financial year. I have heard it remarked over and over again that up to the present time the speeches of members of the Opposition have been very weak. I am not tax? Why, it was condemned from the north to the south, from the east to the west: no question about it. No Government could have retained office which did not abolish that tax. And I think these honourable gentlemen have brought in a policy which has satisfied the people. There can be no doubt but that the policy of the Government has been well discussed during the late recess; that the people understand very clearly what it means, and that, on the whole, they are heartily satisfied with it. What astonishes me is this: that the honourable member for Nelson City always declaimed against the property-tax, and said we ought to have a change, and that a landand income-tax should take its place, and yet, when that change is brought before the House, he does not approve of it. The next objection he made was that the present Government had not spent certain sums which had been voted. Well, I do not think that the Executive ought to be challenged for not having expended money recklessly; and, as to the particular sums which he told us ought to have been spent, I should like to know who ought to be accepted as an authority-a young politician like the honourable gentleman, or the honourable gentlemen on the Treasury benches. It astonishes me to hear and see so many budding Colonial Treasurers-and there are many of them-accusing the Premier of making mistakes; for they are not only challenging him, but the heads of the various offices, who are responsible for a large number of these figures. However, Sir, I suppose that these young Colonial Treasurers would like to have the handling of the cash, and then all would be right. I shall not attempt to follow the honourable gentleman in the number of figures that he enumerated to the House; I shall content myself by saying this: that I feel certain our Colonial Treasurer will make all these misstatements disappear like the mist before the rising sun when he comes to reply at the close of the debate. There was one point about the honourable gentleman-he offered a policy to the Government. I cannot say the policy he proposed was altogether a good one: at the same time, I agree that, if the Government could see their way to assist the outlying settlers in the manner the honourable gentleman indicated, it would be a good thing for persons willing and anxious to settle on the land. I consider that this Financial Statement, with one or two exceptions, is a very satisfactory one. I have no intention of wearying the House with a budget of figures to try and substantiate what I say. I shall content myself with saying that I, for one, rejoice at the return of prosperity to this colony. When we can show that we have a sum of not less than £200,000 paid off our floating debt, that the net surplus last year was not less than £165,000 and that the estimated surplus for the current year is £330,000 odd, that our 33-per-cents, which were quoted as low as 91, have been sold at 97, and that the recent conversion loans have been most satisfactory-then I think this all clearly indicates renewed confidence in our stability in the monetary circles of the world. The one or two exceptions I alluded to were these In the first place, I think that in a Statement like this our goldfields industry should have had a prominent place. I am one who represent a large number of gold-miners; and, seeing that there are no less than thirteen million acres of land in this colony which are only suitable for the mining industry, and that there are at present fourteen thousand men who, with their wives and children, are getting their living from the gold-mining industry, it is an industry which should have more attention paid to it. I say emphatically to this House that that industry is not receiving the attention which it ought to have. There is no doubt that the mining and farming industries are of great assistance to one another. The one is a producer, and the other a consumer. Wherever you find them in this colony located near one another, there you find | prosperous little centres. At any rate, that is my experience. Then, we know that geologists and experts tell us that we have vast wealth in our mineral deposits; and I urge upon the Government that we should do more than we are doing. We should not be content with spending a few hundreds. We should not weaken the spirit of prospecting, but strengthen and increase it, if we can; because, if we spend a few thousands on this, we are helping and developing that which actually belongs to the Government-that which is part of our own national estate. If a few hundreds or thousands were spent in the direction which I have indicated I am quite satisfied it would relieve the congested state of the labour-market in many centres, and many persons now in a poor way would become prosperous men. I know that we have a good practical man at the head of the department, and I know also that the Government feel an interest in the industry; but I speak strongly because I think we ought to pay more attention to the matter in the future than we have paid in the past. The difficulty is that, though the Minister may be willing to do anything he can, he has to stand on the defensive, and he cannot make a raid on the Treasury. It remains for this House to make provision, and, if it does, I am quite satisfied that the honourable gentleman will carry out the work of his department well. Whilst we have some members who have objected to the amount of money - £26,000 — which has remained from the appropriation of last year, I think we ought to congratulate the departments on having shown judicious economy in having saved that amount. We have had no coming to this House with a grievance owing to this money having been held back from expenditure. We ought to congratulate the Government on having refrained from reckless expenditure, and giving so much more to work upon in future. Then, we have the reduction of our indebtedness by £117,000. That will prove to the outside world that we are at the present time living within our means. There is an old saying that if we practise "the art of doing without' we have learned a great lesson; and I believe that that is so. There are many things which we can do without, and, if we only practise that, not only as individuals but collectively as a people, I am satisfied that it will be to our advantage. Sir, I should also like to see a large amount placed on the estimates for surveys. There can be no doubt that in this colony, more especially in parts that we have to deal with now, which are mainly wooded country, you must have the surveyors in advance of the settlers. If you want men to go upon the land you must give them renewed facilities. It would be, to my mind, a great mistake for us to curtail expenditure in that department. Land should be ready, so that if a man makes application for land he should not have to be told to wait for two or four or six months, but should be able to obtain a section at once. Let the surveyor go in advance of settlement. Now we come to the ordinary revenue for the one year 1892-93; and, because the Treasurer has the Legislative Council. As the oldest nativenot overestimated this, some of the members born European member in the House, and on of the Opposition take him to task, and say behalf of my brother-colonists, I wish to place that he wants to mislead the House, so that on record the high appreciation we had of he may show a better surplus at the end of that gentleman's talent and ability. Sir, we the year. I take it, that is most irrelevant. recognised his perseverance, his great capacity, I consider that the Colonial Treasurer, having and his immense financial genius, which has to deal with the funds of the colony, must be materially assisted to consolidate our national very careful in his calculations, so that he may prosperity; and, while conveying our warm symhave a surplus instead of a deficit. Then, pathy to his widow and family, I was pleased because he has brought down no policy of to see that his last following was the largest reduction of the Customs duties, he is again tribute of respect, as it was one of the most taken to task. It is well known to honourable fitting, that could be paid to a statesman members that if there be any alteration in the whose name will long remain green in our mepresent tariff we must immediately suspend mories. Now we come to the great question of anything in the way of public works. Where borrowing. This has been treated from many is the money to come from, if we are not to different sides by different speakers. But, Sir, borrow? And, if we are to live within our I do not think that this overdraft of ours is a means, we must deal with the money we have very serious item-for practically that is what to receive, unless we outrun the constable. We it is this thirty-eight millions is not such must either do one, or the two things. I think a serious item. We have pledged the wealth it is good business acumen to understate the of our colony-the people and the colony itself amount of revenue instead of overestimating it. I believe the Committee who have been appointed to give their best attention to suggest what revision of the tariff should be made perhaps by next Parliament will give information that will be most valuable to the House. Let us hope the result of their endeavours will be that we shall have butter a little greasier and sugar a little sweeter. At any rate, it is reasonable to ask for this: that we shall not have such a tax on tea as there is at present, where a man who pays 1s. 6d. a pound for tea pays 6d. duty, and a man who pays 3s. a pound pays only the same. Under the head of "Stamp Revenue," I notice some large estates whose owners have recently died, and the duty on which materially assists the revenue. Well, while expressing sympathy with the families, I must say that it does seem as if Nature is assisting our public policy in this direction. I am one of those who do not think that the division of some of these estates will be a serious injury to those who own them. I am quite satisfied that in a few years they will find themselves to be in this position: that the residue of their estates will be more valuable than the whole lot at the present time. Thoughtless people are continually stating that overpopulation is the primary cause of poverty. Statistics prove that it is not so in many countries, in the United States, and in the United Kingdom. The great problem we have to study is to get wealth more equitably distributed. What we require, I think, is a public-works policy that will give reasonable employment to those who are asking for it. I have noticed often in the public Press that you see a person's death recorded who is worth something like thousands or millions of pounds, and alongside of it is another record of some poor man who has died and left-what? A large family and a few bad debts. Honourable gentlemen will pardon me for diverging at this point for a moment, as, owing to a sudden bereavement in my own family recently, my place was vacant when the Premier and others so feelingly referred to the decease of the late Speaker of for that amount; and I do not for one moment doubt but what in the course of a few years our interest will sit very much lighter on our shoulders. With a country, larger than Great Britain, having a population only equal to that of a third-rate city, it is marvellous that we have established the position that we hold; and therefore it must give us every hope to see a different and much brighter future. Some honourable members are complaining that this policy is a plot to bring people back from Australia, while others are still asserting that the exodus continues. A very few years ago we were paying very large amounts to bring people into this colony. Why, then, should we feel at the present time that to bring people back would be a mistake? I do not think so. I am satisfied in my own mind that there is plenty of room for many more than we have at the present time. Therefore the introduction of those who left our shores and have returned here, I am quite satisfied, will be a benefit to the colony. Then, again, I feel sure that whenever the results of the last property assessment are known we shall find that a very large amount of private indebtedness has been paid off during the last few years. To my mind, the exports going Home have so exceeded the imports that the result will be as I have described. As regards the withdrawal of capital, I do not think it is very serious at the present time. When I see a record through many papers that certain companies are paying from 6 to 12 per cent. dividend, and a bonus as well, surely the shareholders ought to be satisfied; and where could they do better? I am satisfied there is no other country to which the capitalist could take his money where he could do better than in New Zealand. Then, we have an assumption in the speeches of some honourable members that all the mortgages would fall due at the same time, and that there would be a certain depression because everybody's mortgage would fall in at the same time, and capital would be taken away. An Hon. MEMBER.—They are overdue. Mr. C. H. MILLS.-They may be overdue, but in that case it shows the faith the mortgagees have in the colony: that is rather a point in our favour. There can be no doubt that a number of these mortgages have been existent for a long period, and it is out of all reason to say that capital will be wanted all at once. Besides, if the owner wants the money, and the occupier has not got it, he must find some other person to take his place and hand the money over. If they could take away a part of these Islands there would be some reason for us all to feel hurt, and to feel that, unless there was some alteration in our policy, we should be going towards ruin. But it is not so. We have it on good authority that our exports, even last year's, have steadily improved that our exports have increased by £147,000. And who are these detractors of the colony? I say emphatically they are, as a rule, absentees, or some financial companies, or some very large landowners-those who have some interest in circulating these, as what I call them, fabulous tales-because in many cases they are fabulous. And they seem to overlook the great fact that they are doing injury to themselves and their friends, and the country in which they hive. As regards borrowing in the colony, I think we should be very guarded in coming to a decision as to whether it would be advisable to borrow anything like large sums in the colony; because, if we have to pay 1 or 2 per cent. more, it would be better to go boldly into the market at once and say what we require. That is my advice-let us say what we require, and let the money-lender know exactly what we require it for. There is no sentiment in borrowing; no one will lend us a penny until he gets what he calls good cover; and it is the same with the capitalist at Home. We have simply to look at it from a business point of view, and do the best for the colony. But I do not think money is leaving us, or that no one is ready to invest. The other day I happened to be going as far as Taranaki, and on the train I met a man from Christchurch, who was representing a very large firm there, and who was on his way to overlook a property on which his firm intended to make a very large advance. In the conversation I had with him, he said he was astounded to see what he was then seeing-that is, the country we were passing through-and that his firm would regret that they had limited their operations to the district surrounding Christchurch for so long, and that they would be quite prepared to advance large sums at the rate of 6 per cent. and upwards, according to the value of the security. Therefore the statement made that there is no money at present in the market seems simply to have been made for want of knowing better. A paper which was laid on the table of the other House shows that from June, 1890, to January, 1892, £2,877,000 in mortgages had been discharged and £2,849,000 invested in the colony by thirty-one banks and companies. I think, Sir, that is something for honourable members to consider. An Hon. MEMBER. That return is not correct. Mr. C. H. MILLS.-Well, at any rate, I am only expressing an individual opinion, and I contend this colony is making solid internal progress. I ask, what are our true resources? I say they are comprised in our splendid agricultural and pastoral lands, with their deep and fertile soil; in our lofty hills and mountains, teeming with rich minerals of every description, only awaiting further development; in our beautiful lakes and valleys, with their lovely scenery, offering such great attractions to tourists; and in our grand forests, with their magnificent timber. All these are what I consider are our capital; these form our security. We have a climate which enables us to grow all classes of cereals, and we can even grow tropical fruits. These are the securities we offer to the money-lender, and I defy him to remove them from our shores. They cannot be removed. Well, another item in the Statement is in reference to our railways. I shall say in a very few words all I have to say in regard to them. I hope the principle will never be lost sight of in this colony that the railways belong to the people; and any one who comes to this House and says we are not able to cope with the management of these railways I say is shirking his duty. Any one who stands up in this House and says that the management of these railways cannot be undertaken by this House is not taking up the position he ought to occupy as the representative of a large constituency. I consider that one of the great principles connected with our railways should be the fostering of settlement in outlying districts, and we should not for years to come expect to make a very large profit. If we can raise sufficient to meet interest, or anything near to it, that will satisfy me, and I think it ought to satisfy this House. We have heard a great deal to-day as to what lines ought to be continued and proceeded with at once. Well, after hearing of the Otago Central, and the connection between Wellington and Auckland, I also want to show there is another line, much more important than all the rest, which ought to be constructed, and that is, the connection between Red Post and Picton. I want honourable members to avoid the effects of seasickness; and if they will only join with me whenever the time comes and we have a sufficient sum to construct that line, then a smart channel-boat will land you across the Strait into Ohariu Bay, from one Island to the other, in the short space of two hours. I consider that, when that day comes, the man who is able to formulate a policy, and who can present to the outside world such a prospectus as will be entertained, so that they may lend us a sum sufficient to complete that through line-the main line of the two Islands-he, Sir, will be a statesman New Zealand ought to be proud of. I now come to the Bureau of Industry; and a great deal has been said in reference to this. I think, if any one will look at the map of New Zealand for a few moments, he must see, from that configuration, it is a very difficult matter for people, especially poor people, to move about from one end to the other. We do require |