it under the Act, whether he liked it or not. Trustees would be placed practically in this position: They would have to go to that expense; and, certainly, if they did not do so at once, they would rest only on an interim title, but twelve years after the issue of the interim title that land must be brought under the Act, either by themselves or by the Registrar; and, if they were not provided with authority to expend any of the fees and insurance money in respect of this change, they might have to go to the Courts to get the necessary authority. In point of fact, a complete alteration was proposed, which he thought was a very serious invasion of their position. Not only did he urge this view, but he felt that it was a matter of the greatest importance to the comfort and well-being of the people of this country. He said the other day that he thought the law societies should be consulted on the subject, and he now submitted that no sufficient time had been given to the law societies to investigate this somewhat abstruse matter and to give an authoritative opinion on it. He knew for a fact that the Wellington Law Society had appointed a committee to consider the question; but, owing, no doubt, to other matters and to the nature of the subject, they had not had sufficient time to report. If they had not had sufficient time to report, was it not reasonable to suppose that the other societies had not had sufficient time to do so? Not one communication had reached the Council from the law societies, and no doubt the societies had not had adequate time to consider a matter like this. It was not the custom of the Council to plunge into hasty legislation. He apprehended that their duty was to watch carefully all changes that were proposed, and to make only changes that were definitely ascertained to be desirable in themselves. He did not think they had arrived at this point at present in connection with the Bill under consideration; and to plunge into a change of this description in this light-hearted and, if he might say so, light-headed fashion was scarcely in conformity with the practice and traditions of the Council. The Hon. Dr. GRACE said his attention had been drawn to these principles in the Bill in Committee, to which it was referred. It appeared to him to be highly desirable to approach a simple mode of registration, and he hoped the result would be ultimately good. This was the motive which induced him to support that portion of the Bill. At the same time, he quite admitted that it was a great and fundamental change in their legislation, and he did not believe the Council desired it should be too hurriedly adopted. He might say that he had taken the trouble to find out what was the opinion of the Wellington Law Society in relation to this measure, and he found, as far as the Law Society had up to the present formed an opinion, it was certainly opposed to that portion of the Bill which made imperative the conversion of all titles to the Land Transfer system within twelve years; and that was because it was contended that this provision might press very hardly seas. upon infants, lunatics, and persons beyond the With regard to that particular compulsion, which would come into operation in twelve years, the Law Society had not yet considered it. He ventured to move, That the debate be adjourned until Wednesday next. The Hon. Sir P. A. BUCKLEY would just say, in reply to the Hon. Dr. Grace, that he was as anxious as any other member of the Council that they should have no hasty legislation there. He thought that honourable members who were on the Committee referred to would, at any rate, give him credit for saying that that was his opinion; and it had always been his opinion. In regard to this Bill, he admitted that it was an innovation upon the present legislation on this subject. He admitted it, and said so on the second reading of the Bill. He did not intend-for it was scarcely the time -to follow the argument of his honourable friend Mr. Stevens on the two principles which, as he said, were involved in the Bill. He had already explained them to the Council, and he thought he would be rather trifling with the patience of honourable members if he repeated again what he had already said on these two points. What he proposed-if his honourable friend would accept the suggestion -was that, as they were all agreed, he believed, on the first part of the Bill, which was merely a departmental portion, and upon which they had the explanation offered by the RegistrarGeneral of Lands, time should be afforded for the fullest investigation of the disputed portions; and in this connection he might promise the Council all the assistance within his power in making that investigation. He therefore would ask leave to take the Bill into Committee-unless honourable members desired to speak upon the question and, after getting into Committee, report progress, and obtain leave to sit again, in order to get the opinion of the law societies. Immediately after the Committee was formed, at the instance of one honourable member-he could not at present recollect which one-he had communicated with the law societies of the colony; but up till now he had not received any information from the Wellington Society, or from the other places referred to. He therefore hoped the Council would not blame him if in the ordinary course of business this Bill came upon the Order Paper at this time for committal. was quite prepared to afford the Council the fullest opportunity of considering this matter and investigating it. If honourable members would allow him to take the Bill into Committee, he would be willing to report progress at any stage that might be desired. He The Hon. Dr. GRACE said that under these circumstances he asked leave to withdraw his amendment that the debate should be adjourned till Wednesday. Amendment withdrawn, and Bill committed. The Council adjourned at twenty-five minutes past three o'clock p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. | reserves in that district, and, if so, has this Friday, 22nd July, 1892. First Readings-Lakes Forsyth and Ellesmere Trust Lands-Mangere Reserves - Defence - Gisborne Roads and Bridges-Auckland Crown GrantsTimber for Wellington Railways-Land-scripgraph Office- Starch -Waituna-Otara MailService-Land Bill-North Island Trunk Railway Waikaremoana Land-R. R. Meredith-Amuri Ladbrooke's School-Te Puke Post-and-Tele Settlers-Rifles for Volunteers-Postal NotesPolice as Agents for the Public Trustee-Truck Act-Middle Island Half-castes-Manawatu Railway-Otago Central Railway-H. Crispe-Hopbeer-W. Katene and Others - Chicago Exhibition-Manukau, Levin, and Shannon Post-offices -Compulsory Attendance at Schools - School Reader-book-Lee - Mitford Rifles - Naval and Military Land-claims-Arms Act-Insane Crimi nals, Inebriates, &c. - Mangonui Lithographic Stone-School-books-Telegrams - Rehearing in Native Land Court-Civil Service Pensions and Insurance-Wellington Goods-station- Exports -Financial Statement. been done with the sanction of the Government? Mr. J. MCKENZIE said that, from information received in the Wellington office, he believed that these reserves were not being fenced, unless under that term the question included lands which had lately been awarded to Natives, and some of which had recently been leased by Europeans, and by them fenced in. A school site on Section 201 had also been fenced in lately. The Government had not sanctioned the fencing of any reserves at Mangere. DEFENCE. Mr. JOYCE asked the Minister of Defence, Colonel Fox upon the defences of the colony, When will he present to the House the report of and the general efficiency or otherwise of the Volunteer Force of New Zealand? He was aware that Colonel Fox had only been in the Mr. SPEAKER took the chair at half-past two colony for three or four months, yet he thought o'clock. PRAYERS. FIRST READINGS. Settled Land Bill, Orakei Succession Further Investigation Bill, Kaiapoi Native Reserves Bill, Hospitals and Charitable Institutions Bill, Lodging and Boarding-houses Bill, Dempsey Trust Bill, Aliens Bill, Otago Harbour Board Empowering Bill. LAKES FORSYTH AND ELLESMERE TRUST LANDS. Mr. JOYCE asked the Minister of Lands, (1.) If it be true that during the last two years land-scrip has been accepted in lieu of cash for Lakes Forsyth and Ellesmere Trust lands? (2.) If the answer be in the affirmative, by whose instructions was this done? (3.) Is acceptance of scrip in lieu of cash a contravention of the Act? (4.) What was the name of the person exercising such scrip, and from whom did he purchase the same? (5.) What steps, if any, does the Minister of Lands intend to take to see that the Ellesmere-Akaroa Trust is reimbursed? He asked the question because the matter had been raised in another place. He was not so much concerned about Query No. 4, but was interested in No. 5-namely, as to how the trust was to be reimbursed. Mr. J. MCKENZIE said his answer to the first part of the question was Yes; to the second part that it was done by the instructions of the late Minister of Lands; to the third his answer was Yes-the Law Officers advised so; to the fourth, the name of the person exercising the scrip was J. S. Murray, and it was purchased from the Hon. J. G. Whyte to the amount of £3,334 198. 6d.; to the fifth, the matter was in the hands of the Auditor-General at the present time. MANGERE RESERVES. Mr. BUCKLAND asked the Minister of Lands, Whether he is aware that certain settlers in Mangere have fenced in Government the House should have some interim report as to what the Colonel thought of the Defence Force, and generally of the Volunteer system. He hoped the Minister would be able to promise such report before the end of the session. Mr. SEDDON said it was quite true that Colonel Fox had visited certain portions of the colony, and had inspected the Volunteers in certain portions; but at the same time, on his (Mr. Seddon's) suggesting the advisability of his sending in an interim report, Colonel Fox considered that it would be inadvisable, and said that he would rather report fully than do so piecemeal. He had asked Colonel Fox to be as expeditious as possible, and every expedition was being used. As soon as the report was complete he would have great pleasure in laying it on the table. Mr. JOYCE asked if it was likely to be submitted before the end of the session. Mr. SEDDON said Colonel Fox was leaving for Auckland shortly, and it would be some time before he would be in a position to report. GISBORNE ROADS AND BRIDGES. Mr. W. KELLY asked the Government, To place a sum of money on the supplementary estimates to assist the Gisborne County Council and Gisborne Road Board to repair the damage done to roads and bridges by the late floods. Mr. SEDDON said the honourable gentleman was no doubt aware that in the cases referred to the local bodies were placed in the same position as other local bodies throughout the colony. It was quite true there had been a flood; but the same thing had occurred in different parts of the colony, and it was a question whether, if the Government consented to give the assistance asked for, it might not be a dangerous precedent, as other bodies would ask for the same. He was not aware that there was anything special in this case. Mr. W. KELLY begged to move the adjournment of the House. The Government had not extended that generosity to this district which it had to other parts of the colony. Only a few days ago he made application to the Govern ment to send an engineer to report upon the the late Government a large sum of money was Gisborne Harbour; and the honourable gentle- allowed to be wasted upon the harbour at man said he must not treat Gisborne in an ex- Gisborne. The people had to pay heavy rates ceptional manner. But he would like to point for harbour purposes and for other works, and out that last session a certain harbour on the he thought it was but reasonable that some west coast of the North Island was treated in small assistance should be rendered in an exan exceptional manner, for £2,000 was placed tremity such as that referred to in the question. on the estimates to dredge it. He, of course, The people there would not be able to make referred to the New Plymouth Harbour. It the necessary repairs without some assistance, had been said that that harbour was a harbour because they could not levy sufficient rates to of refuge; but Gisborne was also a harbour of enable them to do so. Under the whole of the refuge. All that was desired now was that a circumstances, seeing the large amount of small sum should be given to the local bodies Crown and Native land which did not pay mentioned in his question to enable them to rates, he thought the Government would be repair the roads and bridges damaged by the acting wisely and expediently also in giving floods. Gisborne was in a very peculiar posi- some small assistance to the local bodies for the tion with regard to roads. The value of the purpose of repairing the roads and bridges Native land in that district, which was greatly damaged by floods. benefited by the construction of these roads, was about £104,000, and the county received no rates from that land. He might mention also that a large proportion of the land in the district had been held up to the present time by Europeans, who had paid rates upon it; but that land had now gone back into the hands of the Natives-half-castes - - who declined to pay rates. The value of that land was about £78,000. A member of that House who held a seat on the Ministerial benches was one of those who refused to pay rates on this land, and there were other gentlemen in the district who refused to pay rates in the same way, although the county received rates formerly from this very property. He thought, considering the position in which Gisborne stood, that some assistance should be given by the Government to put these roads and bridges in repair. He trusted the Governvernment would see its way clear to place a sum on the supplementary estimates for the purpose referred to in his question. Mr. REES trusted the Government would pay some attention to the request made by the honourable member for the East Coast. The East Coast district, of which Gisborne was the centre, had proportionally paid more money to the public revenue than any other district in the colony, and had received less. It had received nothing for public works. It had paid money into the public chest for the last twenty years towards the interest on the public debt. Except by sea it had no communication with other districts. It was thrown entirely upon its own resources. The Government had received immense sums of money from the sale of land in the district, which it had purchased from the Natives at a nominal cost, but the Government had virtually paid nothing in return for the large sums which it had so received. The local bodies were heavily weighted in providing means of communication, and he thought that a small grant might very well be made in this case, in order to aid the local bodies in repairing the damage done by floods. He spoke with some knowledge on this question, because he had been a resident in the district for ten years. He knew the requirements of the district, and the claims the locality had upon the Government. He might mention that by the permission of Mr. SEDDON said, in reference to the reasons given by the honourable member for the East Coast why the Government should render assistance in this case, the honourable gentleman had given what he considered a parallel case so far as the harbour was concerned. The honourable member had stated that the Government had rendered assistance to a harbour on the west coast of the North Island. There might, of course, be sound reasons for treating certain cases exceptionally; but what was the fact so far as Gisborne Harbour was concerned? The Gisborne Harbour Board had a large sum of money at interest. The honourable gentleman had asked that the Government should send a marine engineer not in the Government service to report upon the harbour. Why could not the Board, which had a sum of money at interest, obtain the assistance of an engineer? He feared also that, if the Government were to engage a marine engineer and send him there, and he submitted a report, they would be connecting the Government with this harbour, and would thus be getting in the thin end of the wedge; and he thought if that were done it would be injurious to the colony. The Government wished to keep clear of these harbours, except those directly under the control of the Government. As to giving assistance to the local bodies for repairs to roads and bridges damaged by floods, he was quite prepared to obtain information upon the matter. The honourable member had stated, as a reason why assistance should be given, that the Native and Crown lands in the district were not rateable. He would be prepared to make further inquiries, and, if necessary, bring down a sum of money on the estimates for damages caused by floods, and then leave the House to determine the matter. There might be exceptional cases where some assistance should be given, but he thought it would be unwise, simply on a question like that which had been asked, that the Government should consent to money of the colony being devoted to the purposes referred to. Information would be obtained in regard to the matter, and the question could be decided later on. Captain RUSSELL said the Minister for Public Works was strongly in favour in this case of dealing with these matters on broad principles. The He wished the honourable gentleman would always stick to broad principles, but he thought the honourable gentleman was as a rule very fond of making principles fit circumstances, and not circumstances fit principles. honourable gentleman also went on to say that they should be careful how they allowed the thin end of the wedge to be introduced. Undoubtedly this was a case in which the thin end of the wedge of justice in public-works expenditure had never yet been introduced. The other day he asked the Minister of Lands whether he would make a bridge over the Mohaka River, on the East Coast. That question was on the same lines as the one now under consideration. There was a district which extended from a few miles north of Napier up the East Coast. That district was really one of very great fertility, and it was capable of carrying a very large population. There were practically no roads in that district, and a Minister could scarcely ever be prevailed upon to visit the locality. From first to last there had been the greatest neglect not only as to roads, but also of the simplest wants of the people in the neighbourhood. It would scarcely be credited that there were nearly two hundred miles of valuable country in that district, which had been colonised by very adventurous and energetic people, who had taken up rough country, and who were labouring under very serious disadvantages; for they were almost unable to get their produce to market from want of the very simplest means of communication. There were no roads and no harbours; and, as he had said, it was almost impossible to get produce carried away. The people there had rated themselves to a very heavy extent, and they had done their best under extremely disadvantageous circumstances to get roads in the district. Notwithstanding the large sum the people contributed under the property-tax, no amount of Government money had ever been expended in the district. The Minister for Public Works wanted to violate the principle he had spoken of, inasmuch as, if he had not been interrupted by the honourable member for the East Coast, he was going to urge that the money of the Harbour Board should be expended in the district. He would say again that from first to last there had never been justice done to that part of the country-a district which contributed very heavily to the public revenue, but which benefited in no way whatsoever from the public-works expenditure. He hoped the case would be seriously considered by Ministers, and that something would be done not only in connection with this district, but to enable the whole of the East Coast to have communication with the other parts of the Island. Crown and Native Lands Rating Bill as a pet scheme, and then in a very few years they ruthlessly killed it; and the honourable gentleman was at that time in the Government. He might say that in a case of this sort his honourable friend was only asking for a very fair and reasonable thing, and should have some exceptional treatment given to him; and he might say that the same course might be followed with regard to the roads in the West Coast district. Mr. W. KELLY trusted the Government would reconsider this matter, and do justice to the district, which had suffered to a great extent by not getting justice done to it for many years past. A suggestion had been thrown out by an honourable friend on his right that if he joined the Middle party they would assist him to get justice done; but rather than do anything of the kind he would rely on the Government on those benches. He trusted the Government would consider the matter, and give the relief he asked for. Motion for adjournment negatived. AUCKLAND CROWN GRANTS. Mr. BUCKLAND asked the Minister of Lands, Whether he can see his way to expedite the issue of Crown grants to purchasers of Government lands in the Auckland District? Mr. J. MCKENZIE said, in reply to the honourable gentleman, that he was not aware of any large number of grants lying out in the Auckland Provincial District except grants referring to land disposed of by the old Provincial Government. Many of the original survey-maps were destroyed by fire in 1872. These grants were ordinary grants, but they could not be used now unless a further survey was made of the lands. Whenever a fresh survey was made these Crown grants were issued. To have the whole of the surveys made out at once for the purpose of issuing these grants would cost a large sum of money. There were no less than eighty-six grants, covering an area of 5,592 acres; they were scattered all over the country, and to overtake this work of survey would cost a very large sum of money. However, instructions were given that an early opportunity should be taken to have the land surveyed. TIMBER FOR WELLINGTON RAILWAYS. Mr. FISHER asked the Minister for Public Works, Whether, in his opinion, it is more economic to import from the West Coast silverpine sleepers for the Te Aro railway, or for any other railway in the Wellington District, where totara and matai-very much superior timber -can be supplied in unlimited quantity? This question, as the honourable gentleman would observe, did not question the right or propriety of the Government using silver-pine sleepers on the Te Aro railway; it merely asked those most to import silver-pine sleepers from the West Coast while they had in the Wellington District an unlimited supply of totara. Mr. R. H. J. REEVES said it was the fault of the Government of which the honourable gentleman who had just sat down was a mem-qualified to say whether it was more economical ber that the roads on the East Coast were in the condition they were in at present. It was not the honourable member's fault personally, but the fault of the Administration to which he belonged. That Administration brought in the VOL. LXXVI.—4. Mr. SEDDON said, first of all he was in a position to give an answer as to the silver pine sleepers compared with totara, which the honourable gentleman said was unlimited in the Wellington District. But, seeing the way in which the honourable gentleman had put the question, he (Mr. Seddon) at once challenged him or any other man when they said that totara or matai was superior to silver-pine. He denied that, on the authority of the timber experts of the colony; and in this House his predecessor (Mr. Mitchelson), he thought, had said publicly in the House that the silver-pine on the West Coast was almost equal to puriri. He might also call upon the honourable member for Ashburton, who was an engineer. He (Mr. Seddon) did not think there was the slightest question about silver-pine being equal to totara or matai. But to put the question in the way it had been put was misleading, and absolutely incorrect. Mr. FISHER said that was not the question: it was a question of economy. Mr. SEDDON said he would now give the other side of the question. So that there might be no doubt about it, he would read the reply of the Engineer-in-Chief, which was as follows: tion, Whether a copy of the following letter, This justice, which the Committee has refused I have, &c., RICHARD P. CLARKSON." "The only silver-pine sleepers brought from the West Coast to Wellington District were 2,100 for the extension of the railway to Te Aro.mittee, having agreed that I was the most suitable applicant, was not justified in passing These silver-pine sleepers cost 3s. 2d. each, deme over on account of my religion. I therelivered on the works. Fifteen hundred totara fore look to the Board of Education to do me sleepers, for the same section of railway, cost an average price of 3s. 10d. cach, delivered at Wellington Railway-station. Matai timber cannot be compared with totara or silver-pine for durability; it is therefore never specified or used for railway-sleepers when the other timbers are obtainable, as the difference in price does not compensate for the inferiority in quality. "WILLIAM H. HALES." His answer to the question was, first, that silver-pine sleepers were much the cheapest, and, secondly, they were much superior to either of the other timbers named. LAND-SCRIP. On the following question being called"Mr. Meredith to ask the Minister of Lands, (1) If an honourable member of this House, as agent for another person, has exercised forest-land scrip to a large amount in lieu of cash; and (2), if the answer be in the affirmative, what steps, if any, does the Government intend to take in the matter?"-Mr. MEREDITH said that on Tuesday last Mr Speaker's attention was drawn to this question, and Mr. Speaker ruled that it was out of order because the word "valueless" was used; in consequence of which ruling the word valueless" had been eliminated from the question, and therefore the question was valueless at the present time. He therefore wished to withdraw the question, as the same information was requested in Question 17. Question withdrawn. LADBROOKE'S SCHOOL. me. He had placed this question on the Order Paper because it was of considerable importance to something like ninety-eight thousand people of this colony. He believed in giving been told that questions of this kind were not this question publicity; and, although he had popular and not proper Mr. SPEAKER said the honourable gentleman was not in order in going beyond an explanation of his question. Mr. TAYLOR said he would then explain the question in this way: that he trusted this question, at any rate, would have a tendency to put down anything in the shape Mr. SPEAKER said this was not an explanation of the question. Mr. TAYLOR said, then he would put it in this way: It would prevent him in the future from having to put questions of a similar character, because he believed that the gross injustice which he thought had been done by this Committee would be avoided in future. Of course he knew very well that he could not deal with this question at the present time, because the adjournment of the House had been moved; but he would take an opportunity, unless he got a satisfactory reply, of dealing with this question in future. Mr. W. P. REEVES said the honourable member was doubtless aware that the Education Department did not appoint schoolmasters under the Education Act. It had absolutely nothing to do with these appointments. He Mr. TAYLOR asked the Minister of Educa- had no more power regarding the appointment |