Chairman GLENN. Things went wrong, what, on supply?

JIM. Yeah, something like if the person I am buying my thing from get busted and all, then I have to wait, and if I go somewhere else, they are going to charge me more than I usually pay for it. Then I have to charge my customers usually more than they pay for it.

Chairman GLENN. Mary, when you were selling, how much did you pay for a kilo or half a kilo or whatever the unit was, how much did you pay and how much did you sell it for?

MARY. We was getting ours by pounds and stuff, and I don't know exactly the price ranges, but we always made, you know, profit off of what you sold, like that. Like if something was worth about $300, you know, you could easily sell it for like $500 or $600. You'd always get around double or more, what you sell it for. Chairman GLENN. About double your money?

MARY. It just depends on what type you got, how good the quality, not the quantity, the quality.

Chairman GLENN. Bill, how about you, would you double your money on trades?

BILL. Like in Michigan, the cost in Michigan, they cost $600 for an ounce. Down here it cost $1,000, so I come up here and make more than what I make in Michigan. So I am doubling my money and making more.

Chairman GLENN. Geno, do you have any other remarks you would like to make before we close the hearing?

Mr. NATALUCCI-PERSICHETTI. No, Senator. I know it's a basic problem, and we are dealing with it on a day-to-day basis. It's not very easy to deal with it.

Chairman GLENN. One other thing, I don't believe I asked this. How many users do you think started out on alcohol? Do almost all of them start out on alcohol and go on to other things? I think I asked you that, Mary, and that you-well, maybe I didn't ask that. What do you think, Jim?

JIM. Basically, yes, because from the experience I know of-well, I can't really say "experience," it's just from what I saw in close friends. You know, I lost a lot of friendships because of the drugs and alcohol. It would be because my friend could be with one person drunk or something, they will get drunk and then they will find a new place-like he said when he is drunk or high, whatever, he feel better. So he said he stopped drinking, you know, he thinks drugs is better than drinking. So we just started smoking marijuana. Then they put cocaine in the marijuana, smoke it like that, and then after that they go the farthest with the drugs.

MARY. [Nodding affirmatively.]

Chairman GLENN. Mary, would that be what you found?

MARY. Yes. I started out and most of my friends did on the alcohol and, you know, then you start out with alcohol, marijuana and it just keeps on-it's like going up a ladder. You know, you start and then pills, then coke and, you know, whatever else comes up, shooting up whatever. It just goes up a ladder. Starting out petty, and then you go on up till you die or whatever.

Chairman GLENN. Bill, what do you think? Do you think most of the people you sold to started out using alcohol first?

BILL. I really don't know, because most of the people I hang around with don't drink or smoke.

Chairman GLENN. Do you drink or smoke?

BILL. NO.

Chairman GLENN. Mary, do you drink alcohol? Did you?
MARY. Yes.

Chairman GLENN. Jim.

JIM. No.

Chairman GLENN. OK, we are going to end here very shortly, and I would hope, Jim and Bill, you-obviously, we hate to see you back out selling again. It's only going to be a repeat of what you have already experienced here, except next time around it won't be so easy, and I think that's-you know, it's easy to tell you that. It's also hard, I know, for you to see big, easy money out there and not go for it. But that's only going into more trouble for yourself when you do that, where at your age, you have the opportunity to make very productive lives for yourself and not have to worry about the law coming to lock you up again.

I thank you for coming forward. I asked you to come so we could get some information from you.

COURT REPORTER. Senator.

Chairman GLENN. What do you have?

COURT REPORTER. I have a suggestion of a question you might ask them. Ask them what they think is going to happen after they die. Is there anything after they die?

Chairman GLENN. All right, I might ask you the question, what happens after you die?

COURT REPORTER. They say, "We might get killed." You know, what about after you die?

JIM. Well, there really be nothing left, you will just be dead and gone. Why, you mean money wise?

COURT REPORTER. No, I mean your soul. Is there a soul? Is there anything after you die?

JIM. That's a hard question.

COURT REPORTER. They don't know.

JIM. That's a hard question. I don't know.

Chairman GLENN. Mary.

MARY. Well, I know if I keep on the way I am-the way I was, the way I am now, you know, I know I am going to hell.

Chairman GLENN. Bill.

BILL. I don't know.

Chairman GLENN. Were you ever active in church work? Did you ever go to church on a regular basis when you were a kid? BILL. Yes.

Chairman GLENN. Did you stop?

BILL. I just stopped going. I don't know why. Just stopped going. I used to go every Sunday.

Chairman GLENN. Do you go to religious services in DYS now? BILL. Sometimes.

Chairman GLENN. Now that you are locked up? Mary.

MARY. Yes. I grew up in church when I was little, and when I started, you know, hanging around my friends more, you know, it wasn't cool, so I quit.

Chairman GLENN. Do you go to church services now?

MARY. Yeah, now.

Chairman GLENN. Jim.

JIM. Yes.

Chairman GLENN. You go to services now?
JIM. Yes.

Chairman GLENN. You are not forced to, that's voluntary, I pre

sume?

Mr. NATALUCCI-PERSICHETTI. Correct.

Chairman GLENN. I think it's a good question, most of us believe in another life. What the nature of it is, I guess we could argue all day, if everybody would do that, we could all

Mr. NATALUCCI-PERSICHETTI. We are dealing with youthful factors here. We have something we call "Invincibility." You have to realize after a time that is part of the problem. It takes time.

Ms. WALTER. Senator, one of the questions you had asked all the other groups what they need to do to escape? We have done studies with kids who are traffickers in drugs. I think it doesn't matter what program we offer them. What we have got to start offering these kids is the ability to believe in themselves and ability to feel some accomplishment, whether that is education, job training, family involvement. That's got to be where it comes from, because that is where it is supposed to be. This becomes the number one thing when they get euphoric, and they have to learn to feel loved and feel a sense of accomplishment.

Chairman GLENN. Well, making money out of crime has always been something that was attractive to a lot of people, and whatever you are involved with, bank robbing or selling drugs or whatever, you have got to realize the law is going to be all over you if you continue, and I don't think that is the kind of life you want. You are all three good-looking young people-you really are, I am not just saying that-and I would hope you could get an education and go for a career in something other than something that is going to get you one of two things: you get killed or locked up. I don't think there is any doubt about that. It is not a matter of whether it happens, it is just a matter of how long you can put it off. I don't think that is the kind of life you want to have going for you.

You sound like good, intelligent people, all three of you, and I think if you go for that education, there is no reason why you could not be a doctor or lawyer or whatever you want to be if you set your sights for it and go. You may like the Mercedes out there or BMW or whatever it is, it is very attractive when you make that much money in a short period of time, but you are also going to have a life that you are not going to have much good out of that money for very long, probably, anyway. So I hope you can see fit to change what you say you intend after you get out.

Thank you very much for being here, and I do appreciate the three of you being willing to come and testify this morning. Geno, we appreciate your coming this morning and arranging this for us. Mr. NATALUCCI-PERSICHETTI. Thank you, Senator. It is our privilege to be here.

Chairman GLENN. It has been very interesting this morning, and we may want to continue a series like this in Washington, but I think it is important to get out in the areas where the people are involved in anything within these areas to where, when someone

gets involved, there is a national program in place, or a national program might be more beneficial to us or have more human rights.

Right now we still have more national programs than we have questions and answers. I hope we can break through this period and find national programs by evaluations that work better so that drug trafficking will stop and the carnage on the streets and the individuals are stopped also.

You know what happens with people who use it. We know the changes in chemistry and in the brain. The more studies we do the more indications we have of what this does to lives. It is just a shame for whatever reason that people get involved with this.

So thank you all very much for being here this morning and thank you again for your willingness to appear. We stand in recess, subject to the call of the chair.

[Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the Committee was adjourned, subject to the call of the chair.]

Thank you, Senator Glenn, for asking me to appear before your panel on "Ohio's Drug War". You are to be commended for conducting this hearing to ascertain how efforts on the federal level can be coordinated better with efforts on the state level. If you don't mind, I would like to look at the drug issue from a different perspective this morning.

For background, there are several measures currently in the Ohio General Assembly which address the drug issue. The extent of the proposed legislation ranges from increasing the penalties of drug offenders and building additional prisons to providing additional resources and programs for the rehabilitation and treatment of drug users. Many of these legislative efforts are positive and is representative of our attempt, in the General Assembly to combat the "drug problem" in our state.

Mr. Chairman, the public wants something to be done. But they may be tiring of the rhetoric associated with the issue. In the several schools I have attended both in Columbus and around the state, our children have expressed feelings in this regard.