kept my younger brothers and sisters, but others in the community gave me the safe environment needed while my parents worked.

When Billie said there is not a building where you can go to, YWCA is not located within the city boundaries of Cleveland. When I left high school there was a YWCA on Addison Road that I could go to after school. We were learning dance, we were learning charm, but I think when you really look back, what you were doing, you would see there was an adult there to supervise, and we were learning to share, to give. Our experiences were broadened. We had the opportunity to feel as though we could make it in a society that normally looked down on poor people, and those individuals in place, those services that the first time they came down to cutting out because we were having increases in teen pregnancy, increases in drugs.

If you notice, once those social services were removed, you see the increases. So we need to look at providing those services and scratch the numbers. The numbers you can play with. The individual is where we need to see the difference.

Chairman GLENN. OK, thank you all very, very much for being here, and we will keep in touch. We may have some other questions we want to send to you, and the answers will be supplied as part of the hearing. We appreciate your being here this morning very, very much. Thank you all.

We have the Mayor of Cleveland here with us this morning, Mike White, the Mayor of Cleveland. Mike, we welcome you this morning. I am glad you could interrupt your schedule to be with us here a while. We will appreciate any comments you have. I know you have been listening to this for a few minutes.

Mr. WHITE. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Chairman GLENN. What we are doing, Mr. Mayor, is I have been concerned that we get so involved with big programs in Washington and this number of millions of dollars for this program and for something else that we lose sight of what we are aiming at sometimes, and that is how to keep our young people off drugs and alcohol and prevent them from becoming a problem. We thought at one time about bringing some of the young people into Washington to tell us what was working and what was not working and where they saw the problems and also the people that worked directly with the youth, the young people themselves.

So that is the reason for this field hearing of the Governmental Affairs Committee today is to try to get it straight from the kids themselves what is working, what isn't working, and we think that is the most productive way to go, and also to talk as we did here with the people who are working directly with the kids in the schools. I dropped in at the Central Intermediate School yesterday afternoon for a while and talked to some of the people out there who are into different programs, the Aim High program that was mentioned here and some of those.

So we are honored to have you drop by with us this morning here. I know you have a busy schedule. You are welcome to make a statement.

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL WHITE, MAYOR, CLEVELAND, OH Mr. WHITE. First of all, Senator Glenn, I want to thank you, as one of the two U.S. Senators for our State, for taking an interest in this problem, additionally for coming to the State to hear firsthand from our young people about some of the problems and some of the terrors that they face every single day. So I want to, first of all, commend you and welcome you to Cleveland City Hall.

Senator, also to your colleagues, let me try to center my comments, I think, on the question of drugs and how they impact on our children, but let me try to set the context. I think that you are here today visiting our city, but in a major way you are here as another outpost in the war against drugs, and I would like to be able to say to you as one of the generals on the front line that we have attacked the enemy and they are on the run. The reality of it is they are not on the run; in fact, if anything, they grow stronger day by day.

Many people have talked about the "drug war." There clearly is a war going on. Frankly, it might be more successful if it was a real shooting war, because people are dying just the same. Not only are adults dying, but children are dying.

You might be interested in knowing that I just left a meeting of the Intergovernmental Education Committee between the city of Cleveland and the Cleveland School Board. It is the first Intergovernmental Committee meeting since our administration took over. It is a committee designed to begin the communication between the school board and the City of Cleveland on how we can help our children in a variety of ways.

Quite naturally, one of the areas that our conversation centered on for a long period of time had to do with drugs in the school system, so I would want to report to you today that I think in terms of putting the two most significant governmental units together in this city on the question of drugs and how they affect kids that is now beginning to take place.

I feel that a 3-pronged approach is needed at the local level for an active war against drugs. Let me say to you that I don't think that there is anything that we could do that will make Cleveland drug free while the rest of America drowns in drugs, but I think that we have to stand on the front line, and we have to make this fight like mayors in cities across the country.

First of all, there is enforcement. I would suggest to you that there are many levels of enforcement. Unfortunately, we at the city level get too overly consumed by enforcement on the street level, being able to interdict a person at 79th and Woodward or kick in a door at King-Kennedy or arrest three or four people with a small quantity of drugs in their possession.

Last year this city arrested 6,000 people on drug charges. I would wager to say two-thirds of those people or more are back on the street today and the vast majority are selling drugs. Clearly, we do not have the capability to establish penalties and to make those penalties stick in a way in which they will be a deterrent.

Enforcement at the street level is not enough. We are doing almost nothing to deal effectively with those individuals who are on the wholesale side of dealing drugs, those who sell it by the

truckfull and by the suitcasefull. In order to do that in this area we need a county-wide activity that is much more coordinated than we have today.

Chairman GLENN. Mr. Mayor, just let me add in that regard that I have some figures which showed up some time ago in Washington after all the interdiction-and this is speaking of the Nation, of course the Coast Guard estimates we pick up about 5 percent of the incoming drugs with all the effort and all the expenses we are putting forth. I think you are trying to control it on the supply side. While I am for interdicting, arresting and throwing them in jail and I voted for everything along that line, that is not the final

answer.

Mr. WHITE. I agree.

Chairman GLENN. The issue is that the stuff comes in by truckloads here, and you can't pick up everybody, so we are trying to concentrate a little bit on the other end, on the demand side, trying to cut down the use.

Mr. WHITE. I might only add, on the supply side we have found that owner responsibility laws, especially people who rent cars to known drug felons, people who rent property to known drug dealers, are one way of looking at it and one way of making these individuals outcasts.

I might also point out that on the enforcement side, confiscation, we believe, is a major tool. The more we can confiscate-and I said in the recently concluded campaign that if we can confiscate everything from the house to the car to the firstborn, we will make a dent at least somewhat on the supply side.

Let me deal for a moment, though, with the other two parts of what I think has to be a 3-pronged strategy. Second would be education/treatment. If you had been here last night you would have seen about 75 children who were the first graduates of our DARE Program. The DARE Program is a cooperative program between the Attorney General and our police department, city government and the school board, designed to educate our children that drugs will kill you. I happen to believe that telling kids "Just say no" is not enough. We need to graphically portray to our children in as many different ways as possible that not only are drugs bad for you, but they will take your life.

I believe that we have to expand education, and one of the areas in cities especially, to expand would be in the area of education through our churches. We are looking at a number of ways in which we can approach churches from all ecumenical backgrounds to suggest ways on Sunday through their Sunday schools that they may be able to assist in communicating this message.

One area we have not done very much with yet is a formalized educational program for parents. Sometimes I think we forget that just because a parent, in many cases, is an adult that they know it all on many, many different issues. Well, the fact of the matter is that there are many, many parents who are being confronted with the scourge of drugs in their living room for the first time and never thought they would and tell their neighbor, "I never thought it would attack my household," and they are virtually ignorant on the question of drugs.

Also with education there needs to be treatment. The city of Cleveland presently operates a very small treatment facility. In no way does it operate a treatment program that can either match or keep pace with the number of individuals, children and adults, that are being attacked by this problem.

The third prong of this attack that I would like to leave for your thoughtful consideration is something that I truly do not believe is being dealt with by the Federal administration to the greatest degree. Last summer, as a candidate for mayor, I spent a day and a night in King-Kennedy, the housing project at 79th and Woodward, and I spent a night from about 11 o'clock to 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning on a drug patrol where men and a few boys who were not paid by the city, who have no grants, who have no foundation support, were going out every night to chase, literally, the drug pushers from the project.

We started to walk up on a group about 1:30 in the morning, and I was with a Muslim. He turned to me and he said, "You know, Senator, you have got to understand that this is more than just arresting people and educating people. You have got to understand that drugs feed on deprivation. It is a disease of the soul that no matter how many people you arrest, no matter how many people you educate, if they believe fundamentally that tomorrow will at best be no better than today and today is living hell, they continue to sell drugs and continue to use drugs.

That was probably the most profound thing that was said to me in the entire campaign. He went on to say that in addition to all the other things that the Government is doing, that it must find a better way to provide opportunity to say to our adults and our children that tomorrow is going to be a better day, that if you stay in school there will be a clear difference between the child that stays in school and the child that drops out of the 9th grade; that is, a college education or a technical education or a job.

So on the one hand he talked a lot about enforcement, and he talked to me lightly about treatment. If I could leave any point with you today, it is that I think we ought to give the provision of opportunity a chance in the war on drugs when it comes to our children. We have to show them, not by saying that it is a right that you have a better opportunity, but that it is a responsibility of society to give you an alternative to what you are doing. That's why we are pushing our Health and Human Services as a goal we want to be sure that every child 15 years old or older who either wants or needs a job can find a job and we assist in doing that.

We do it for a couple of reasons: (a) we want to put money in their pockets, (b) more importantly, you want to put them next to someone who has a job who could be a mentor and who can work with that child for the next 3 years. That is our goal. I can't tell you that we will get there, but I believe that we need to give children a choice between having a meaningful job and meaningful human contacts and selling drugs in our community.

So I would only hope that you and your colleagues and especially the administration, would give some thought to the provision of more opportunities for our children. Thank you.

Chairman GLENN. Good. Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Chairman GLENN. Let me ask you a question that came up in the last group. Miss Osborne, who periodically conducts athletics, agreed that when she was growing up out in St. Mary, out where I was yesterday out around Čentral, that there was always a YMCA, YWCA or someplace after school for single-parent families, that there was someplace to go where the mother or dad didn't have to worry particularly about the kids and they had programs and there were athletics, dances, charm schools and crafts and all sorts of things like this. That is one of the positive things.

It is like Miss Curlee said, "If I am saying 'no' to drugs, what am I saying 'yes' to?" where there were opportunities after school. Has anybody ever thought of this idea that we talked about a little while ago, about the school stopped being used, basically. Some people, maybe, but they stopped being used about 2:30 in the afternoon, and the kids are out there, doing what? Well, roaming around.

Could the schools be used as the modern-day Y, and could the churches be taking up this as a project? Churches want to do good on other days besides Sunday, too, and take this on as a deacon's program or something and man the schools at 2:30 or whatever and have programs and crafts and manual arts and dance and charm school and auto mechanics and a whole host of things that it would seem to me a lot of kids would take up and be interested in. Is that something that should be considered?

Mr. WHITE. Senator, you have hit upon what I think is a crucial element that should be used in our options. In fact, the meeting I just left, the Intergovernmental Committee meeting between the Board of Education and the City of Cleveland, one of the reasons we focused on recreation, not just as something to get the children out of a person's sight, but to expand the amount of positive recreational encounters and positive encounters with adults that would keep them off of the streets and would give them an alternative. So I would indicate to you that whether it is utilizing the schools as a community center and not just as they have been utilized historically, and secondly, utilizing the churches is a critical part of this.

I might just make one other point. Senator, if money was the answer to this problem, I think you would agree that the Congress would have found a way to hit the magic number by now and we would have moved on to the next problem. It is not just money. This is a human-spirit problem, and it's a matter of bringing to bear all of the human content and human commitment to this problem. All the money without the involvement of the adults in this community to expand the recreation like you talked about, to improve our church facilities will not work, so you are absolutely right.

So I just would only indicate to you that I think we ought to not try to look for the first grant to expand it. We ought to begin to look at how we can reapply some of our resources. Let's not just do it because there is a new Federal program, let's do it because it's a very important part of how we attack this problem and how we involve our children.

Our intermural program in the schools is shot, no basketball, not to the greatest extent, no football on an intermural basis. We are going to improve our Community League as well. Children are