opportunities for discussion, and on these grounds it was that he requested his Noble Friend to withdraw his motion for the present. The Earl of CARLISLE, in a few words, expressed his acquiescence in the proposition of his Noble Friend, but at the same time observed, that no well-founded objections had been offered against it. Lord PELHAM expressed his opinion, that a motion like that in question should not be agreed to, except distinct and adequate reasons were assigned for its adoption, and specific grounds urged for going into the inquiries alluded to. He perfectly agreed in what had fallen from his Noble Friend, that nothing had been suggested by the Noble Earl, in reference to the naval department, that constituted sufficient ground for inquiry; he should not, therefore, at present enter into that line of discussion. With respect to the point of which so much had been said, the conduct of Ministers, that, with reference to the peculiar circumstances of the country, would, at a proper period, be a fair ground for inquiry. But it was the consolation of his Majesty's present Ministers, that, with a reference to the existing circumstances of the country, their conduct had been such, as they conceived to be most conducive to the honour and the interests of the nation. On that ground it had been satisfactory to themselves, and had been sanctioned by Parliament; in that line of conduct they would persevere, nor would they be drawn from it by any taunts which may be thrown out against them. With respect to motions of such a nature as the present, he expressed his hope that the House would not countenance a sudden investigation at any time, without adequate grounds being previously assigned. Lord GRENVILLE in explanation observed, that Ministers could not consistently be said to rely on the confidence of Parliament and the country, as they uniformly withheld all knowledge and information whereby either could rightly judge of their conduct. They had gone on arming and disarming, without condescending to let the public know the circumstances which warranted such contradictory and opposite measures. Lord HOBART, in reply, observed, that it was with Parliament alone to draw such conclusions; the sentiments of which had plainly indicated how far it approved of the conduct of Ministers. Since their accession to office two very great and important political measures had been completed, namely, the peace with the Northern Powers, and the subsequent peace with France. The unanimous approbation which both these measures met with was unprecedented in the annals of Parliament. Lord GRENVILLE shortly observed, that these circumstances had no application whatever to the points in question, which referred only to the conduct of Ministers during the last eighteen months.. The Earl of CARLISLE spoke shortly in further explanation. The LORD CHANCELLOR quitted the woolsack, and after noticing the tenour of the motion, observed that the Noble Earl's complaining that no reasons were given why the motion should not be agreed to, appeared to him a little extraordinary, as he had always understood, that when motions of that kind were made, it was necessary that some reasons should be given for their adoption. The subsequent conduct of the Noble Earl appeared to him to be equally extraordinary. After having proposed the motion, without assigning any reason why it should be adopted, he now contents himself with withdrawing it, because he had heard no reasons for its rejection. The Noble and Learned Lord then proceeded to enforce the objections offered by the Peers on the ministerial bench, and added, that the Noble Earl had rather inconsistently asserted the object of the motion to be for the correction of evils, without condescending to state what those evils were. His Lordship then proceeded successfully to combat the general assertions made by the Peers in opposition, argued the inconsistency of their conduct, on their own principles, in judging the conduct of Ministers, previously to the institution of those inquiries they so loudly called for. The question was then put, on a proposal from the Noble Earl (CARLISLE) for withdrawing this motion, and agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, March 21.-(See Minutes, p. 508.) [EAST INDIA ACCOUNTS.]-The report of the committee on East India accounts was taken into further consideration. The resolutions were all read and agreed to, without any observation being made on any of them, except the last; and the question being put upon which, Mr. FRANCIS said, he thought it proper for the satisfaction of the House, to explain what he meant by the word "false," as applied to the Indian accounts now before Parliament; and in doing this, he hoped every Gentleman would put the liberal construction on the intended application of the word, that was really meant by the use of it. When he used the word false, as applying to the accounts before the House, he did not mean to accuse any Hon. Gent. of having committed the least act that would stain his honour: he had only used it to convey this meaning, that the accounte into, which, he said, must be clear to any Gent. who would take the trouble to give them a minute consideration. which had been offered to Parliament were incorrect; and, therefore, to express his opinion of those accounts, he had called them false-a word used and well understood in logic, which is not of personal application, but only ex- Lord CASTLEREAGH said the last Gent. presses the inaccuracy of a position or state- had, in his mind, given so clear a statement of ment. He could assure every Gentleman pre- the facts, that it was unnecessary for him to sent, that he had no intention to apply the trespass on the attention of the House a miword in any other way than as explained by nute, but he thought it right to observe that him. He understood of the Noble Lord who the Company had a claim on the public. He had laid the India papers before the House, said that the original capital was 6,700,000l. that the Legislature was to guaranty the His Lordship then went over several parts of stock of the India Company, to the amount of the accounts which he had before explained twelve millions of money, with other circum-on the night he brought the subject before the stances connected with the Company, which House, and concluded by paying Mr. Metcalf had not in his mind been clearly laid before a compliment on the accuracy of his statethe House; the neglect of which, and inaccuracy of the accounts, were the objects of his complaint. ment. Mr. W. DUNDAS made a few general remarks on the Company's accounts, and considered them as very accurate. Mr. JOHNSTONE said, that it was very clear from the accounts which had been laid before the House, that the Company's affairs were in a worse state this year, than they had been found to be for several years back, by thirteen hundred thousand pounds, together with other deficiencies, which fully evinced, that they were not in that flourishing state which had been reported; and on a minute investigation of the accounts, they would be found very defective. Mr. WALLACE contended, that the estimates ought to be depended upon, inasmuch as they were always made with great care, and they had always been found to be as correct as the nature of the subject would admit. He then referred to a statement made by Mr. Dundas in his budget in 1796, and contended that he had never stated, that the public were to enjoy their participation at all events, whether the Company should be in a state of peace or war. Mr. THEOPHILUS METCALF said, every Member in that House had a right to investigate the papers now before them relative to the affairs of India, but no Gentleman should go so far as to say, that the East India Company had taken any measure to conceal any part of their accounts, with an intention to deceive Parliament. If the Hon. Gent. thought the accounts were false, it was his duty to bring the business before the House in a regular way. The article alluded to by the Hon. Gent. (Mr. Francis), he had taken every method to explain on a former occasion, and had pointed out to the House, in the clearest possible way, how the money had been applied, and every circumstance connected with the article which has been the object of comment by that Hon. Gent. He said, he was aware that publishing the debates in Parliament, was contrary to the privileges of the House; how ever, on that subject he should not dwell, but he could not but make an observation on a paragraph in one of the public prints, which, in his mind, appeared something like a puff, and intended to have some weight with the public relative to the question now under discussion; but he could assure the House and Mr. KINNAIRD said, he was highly gratified the Hon. Gent that the Company's accounts with the statement given by a Noble Lord on would bear a minute investigation, and con- a former night, respecting the situation of the vince those Gentlemen who may feel inclined East India Company; but there was one questo examine them, of the justice and honour of tion which he wished to ask. It had been the East India Company, and that the affairs stated, that the war did not break out in India of the Company were in a better state by a till 1798, therefore from the year 1793 to 1798, million or two than they had been. Mr. Met- a period of five years, the Company enjoyed a calf then requested the Clerk to read the Jour-state of peace. He wished to know whether, nals of the House with respect to the sum of during that period, any and what money had twelve millions alluded to by the Hon. Gent. been paid to the commissioners for the gua [After the Clerk had read the record] he de-rantee fund. clared that there was a balance in favour of the Company of upwards of two millions, notwithstanding they have had heavy difficulties to struggle with, and which must always attend them during a war. The Hon. Gent. then went over several parts of the accounts he had on a former occasion entered at large VOL. III. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that if the Hon. Gent. had read the act of Parliament, he would have found that no money could be paid towards the guarantee fund, until the East India Company's debt was reduced to the point required by law. * Gg Mr. KINNAIRD said, he was perfectly satisfied with the explanation. The resolution was then agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tuesday, March 22. (See Minut p.508.) [MILITIA OFFICERS' BILL.]-On the motion of the SECRETARY at WAR, the House resolved itself into a committee of the whole House on the militia officers' bill. He observed, that he had made a few alterations in the words of a clause or two, which were merely technical. Mr. BASTARD said, notwithstanding much had been observed to the House with respect to the clause which gave the Lord Lieutenant the power to accept the services of non-qualified men, he could not but express his disapprobation of the clause, as it would prevent men of landed property from giving their services to the militia. He was sure if persons were indiscriminately suffered to enter in the militia, as the clause in question would allow, men of property would not enter. The SECRETARY at WAR said, the propriety of the clause must be obvious to every one, as the Lord Lieutenant must have the power to fill up the vacancies with unqualified persons, if men of landed property did not offer themselves. The Hon. HENRY LASCELLES said, that as the clause now stood, the Lord Lieutenant had the power of choosing whom he pleased: he wished that men of lauded property should have the preference. The SECRETARY at WAR said, he thought it proper to vest the exercise of that authority in the Lord Lieutenant, as a man might be a proper person for the militia in consequence of his property, but a very improper person from various other circumstances. Colonel MITFORD contended for the importance of the militia; he observed he did not mean to say any thing unhandsome of those gentlemen in the regular service, but he thought the militia ought to consist of men of landed property; and as many gentlemen in the regular service were often not very wealthy, the two descriptions of characters ought not to associate with each other, in the sense he meant it, as public men. Lord FOLKSTONE concurred with the objections which had been made to the clause in question. Mr. BASTARD said, there was a period when the militia of this country was a body of the first consequence, but they had not been treated with kindness; and there was a time when men of the first consequence felt an ambition to enter into the militia; but the treatment they had experienced had chilled the desire of many gentlemen for the support of its dignity and consequence, and therefore there was no wonder that Government found a difficulty in filling the vacancies in the militia; as, during the last Parliament, a bill went through the House, that went at once to rob them of every dignity and comfort—and if that act was renewed, the House would again witness the great support of the country lessened and degraded. But he hoped Parliament would be cautious how they treated this valuable bulwark of the nation, on whom we should depend for the protection of those blessings we now enjoy. "Use," said he, your militia with kindness, and you will find they will stand before an enemy with zeal to defend the country." 66 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in answer to the observations of the Hon. Gent. who spoke last, that his Rt. Hon. Friend, who had brought in this bill, was a true friend to the militia system, but that the observations of the Hon. Gent. who had just spoken (Mr. Bastard) did not apply to the principle of the bill now under consideration, though the Hon. Gent. undoubtedly meant that they should. He denied that the militia were insulted by the acts of the last Parliament, neither were they degraded; some of the measures of Parliament were indeed such as might have been wished to have been otherwise; but the committee, as well as the Hon. Gent. who spoke last, would have the goodness to remember, that the measures to which he referred were not measures of choice, but of necessity, and the Hon. Gent. as well as others, acted under it from necessity; and he would be as ready as any one to obey that necessity if it existed now; but would the Hon. Gent. state, that we were in the same situation as we were then? Certainly we were not. That situation arose from a consciousness that the other forces of his Majesty were employed in every part of the world; and could we forget what was due to the militia for their services, in consequence of his Majesty's forces being so employed? What were the instruments by which we supported our glory? The militia. How was Ireland defended? By the militia. How were our victories obtained on the coast of Egypt? By the very measure which the last Hon. Gent. condemned; by the laws which were made in the last Parliament for the regulation of the militia, and by the excellent conduct of that constitutional body of force— we could not have had those triumphs but in consequence of the measures taken by Parlia ment with regard to the militia. He had already said, however, that these measures of the last Parliament were the effect of necessity. Colonel MITFORD also repeated his former observations on the clause. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said a few words in answer to the last Hon. Gent. Several other Members expressed various opinions on the clause in debate, which was at length carried, leaving out the words which were imperative on the Lord Lieutenant to fill up the vacancies in the manner prescribed. HOUSE OF COMMONS. God grant that the necessity of recurring to gentlemen of landed property would not asso such measures might never be felt again!ciate with unqualified persons, notwithstandThese observations he thought he was called ing the exigency of the moment, to complete upon to make, in consequence of what had the militia of the country; he therefore could just fallen from the Hon. Gent. or he should not, with any satisfaction to himself, agree to not have made them, for he had no intention, the clause, when he came to the House, of taking any share in the discussion of this bill. But now that he was up, he could not help making a few, and they should be a few, observations. It had been stated, that the clause now proposed was a direct infringement on the militia laws. That it was an invasion on the original system, or a novelty in it rather, he did not deny; but he submitted, that it had been rendered unavoidable by the change which had taken place in the militia since the institution of that constitutional force. He knew that the militia was supported at its commencement with the ardour of the landed interest of this country. He knew also, and he had much pleasure in reflecting, that that ardour continued to a great extent; but it should not be forgotten there were other claims upon the patriotic exertions of gentlemen of the landed interest; that there were demands on their public spirit, and some novelties which operated upon their patriotism, and called forth their efforts in support of their country. All these things considered, it would be obvious there was not now the same facility as formerly in procuring officers for the militia. It was otherwise at the establishment. The difference of circumstances had introduced some novel ties into the system. What was here proposed was not to outstep the ancient system, but to provide that the change of circumstances should not produce great inconveniences to that part of the service. The great object was, as the Hon. Gent. and many others had stated, to provide, as much as possible, the militia with officers from the great landed property and gentry of the kingdom; but if that could not be done, if they could not every where be found ready to take upon themselves that service, then that others, who, although not as well qualified in fortune, might be qualified in ability, should take that service. This measure was not intended to exclude the gentry from being officers of the militia; on the contrary, it was much desired that they should come forward in that service, but to provide for the service in case of their absence; for if we could not have officers qualified in fortune, in the way which was most desirable, we must take care that the militia service should not be left without officers. It was upon that principle he approved of the clause now before the committee, and it was upon that principle his Rt. Hon. Friend proposed it. Lord FOLKSTONE observed, though several Hon. Gent. had said on a former occasion, that the present period was not calculated to be too nice as to the qualification of persons to fill the vacancies alluded to, yet he thought Wednesday, March 23. (See Minutes, p. 509.) An in ed in the first statute), he still remained liable importance of this constitutional body. The to all the penalties, &c. imposed by the 11th militia, for these few years past, had been and 12th of William III. Now it happened, carried to a great and improper extent, and that a great number of Catholics had only nothing but the exigence of the moment could taken the last oath, thinking that there was justify the alteration which had taken place in but one Catholic test, and that that was the the militia of the country, and which, in his one imposed by the last statute. They sup- mind, had reduced its importance. He thought posed that they were not under the necessity it would be of advantage to the country if the of taking the first oath, which in substance is regular army assimilated with the militia, and included in the second one. Instances had that those who came into the service, should occurred, where, when their titles to estates enlist for the term of six years. The Hon. came to be examined, they had been found Gent. then repeated many of the observations defective merely from the inadvertency of not on the army, he had made on a former occataking the first oath. There appeared to him sion. It was a doctrine laid down the other to be no conceivable reason why both the oaths day, that no opposition should be given to should be retained, because the state derived this bill, unless Gent, who opposed it, should no additional security from retaining the first suggest some plan that would answer the puroath. The second oath differed from the first, pose of the country better than what the prein an omission, the nature of which he should sent bill had offered; but he did not think this state. The first contained a renunciation of doctrine good, as a man may be able to discoallegiance to the person assuming the title of ver defects in a picture without being an artist, Charles III. he being alive when that act or be able to judge of a poem, without being a passed; but it was omitted in the second act, poet; and therefore he thought the opposition because he was then dead. This was the only any Gent. might be inclined to give to the bill, Omission in the second oath, which, with that was not improper. The militia, as it was now exception and some small additions, was the constituted, went a great way to destroy the same as the former one. Now, it was rather regular army, for it was a known fact, that the singular, after a man had taken the more per-militia officers were now giving nine guineas fect oath, to call upon him to take one that was less perfect. A Catholic who had taken the last oath, could have no objection to take the former one, and therefore, if he did not take it, it could only arise from ignorance or inadvertence. It was therefore perfectly useless and inconvenient to retain it; besides, it led to a degree of incongruity in the law, which ought not to exist. Upon these grounds he should move for leave to bring in a bill to extend to Roman Catholics the benefit of both statutes, upon their taking the oath contained in the first. This being a motion respecting religion, it was referred to a committee of the whole House. [MILITIA OFFICERS' BILL.]-Mr. WINDHAM said, he had taken a very comprehensive view of the measure now about to be adopted by the bill before the House; upon the whole he did not mean to object to it, yet he thought it necessary to state how far he approved of the bill, and the clause relative to the admission of half-pay officers into the militia. It was nothing but the exigence of the moment warranted the present measure: he therefore should make a few remarks on the militia, as to its first constitution and present establishment. As the militia was first constituted, it was the armed force of the country, and contained those regulations which must be approved of by every man who took the trouble to compare it with the established militia of the present day. Within these few years it had been torn to picces by many new laws, and its members embodied into the regular service. Such measures had done much to destroy the Per man, consequently they could not suppose that men would enter into the regular service. He said, he would acknowledge with candour, that he had conversed with many military men, some of whom were advocates for the augmentation of the militia; others, indeed, did not support the principle. He could not but again object to the militia as it was now established; for every Gent. in the House must own, it was not like the militia that was originally constituted. It has long appeared like the regular service, without its perfections. The Hon. Gent, then said, there ought to be no distinction between the gentlemen qualified for the militia, and those unqualified officers whose character and talents should be approved of by the Lord Lieutenant. The army abounds with gentlemen of the highest honour and talents, and therefore the want of property should not render their situation and duty unpleasant to them; but, at the same time, every care ought to be taken to prevent improper persons from being admitted to join the militia. The SECRETARY at WAR said, he did not think it necessary to follow the Hon. Gent, through all his remarks, but he must repeat the observation he had before made on the clause alluded to by the Hon. Gent. If this was a moment of exigency, a strong and well-constituted militia was necessary, as the Hon. Gent. had allowed. He was sure the clause in question would not be considered as improper: as the vacancies might not be filled with qualified men in time, therefore it was necessary the Lord Lieutenant should have a power, which this clause grants to him, to complete the numbers as early as possible. The alteration |