the case, he had a communication to make to that night, and contrary to his own feelings their Lordships relative to the negotiation as to what should be the right line of conduct with the government of France. He alluded that Ministers should think fit again to enter to the notice recently given by a Noble Earl, into a protracted negotiation, and (so we unthat he should on that day bring forward a derstood the Noble Earl) again to express motion respecting the subject, if no commu- themselves in terms of uncertainty, to come nication were made. Motives of respect to forward and again trouble their Lordships on that Noble Lord, as well as to the House in the subject, and with a detailed statement of general, induced him to come forward, and his reasons in favour of an address to his Mastate what had come to the knowledge of his jesty, expressive of what he thought should Majesty's Ministers, as having taken place be the sense of the House in such circumsince the period he had last mentioned the stances, and urging an inquiry into the causes subject to their Lordships. He reminded the of a delay, which he was convinced must be House, that he had stated on a former even- injurious to the real interests of the country. ing, that on Friday morning the French Am- He concluded by moving, that the order which bassador had applied for passports; and he was made respecting his intended motion of had farther apprized the House, that his Ma- to-day be discharged. jesty's Ambassador had orders to quit Paris on a certain day, in case the matter in discus- Earl SPENCER begged leave to take the opsion were not likely to be brought to a favour-portunity to offer a few observations upon the able issue. He had now to state, that circumstances, however, had since occurred, which had induced a delay on the part of his Majesty's Ambassador at Paris; but this circumstance was not attended with any other changes than the necessary delay which arose from the proceeding. However, he entertained a confidential hope that he should, in a short time, be able to come down with a regular communication upon the subject to the House.

The Earl of DARNLEY could not avoid expressing his sense of the degree of candour with which the Noble Secretary of State had conducted himself on the present occasion. As circumstances stood, he felt himself inclined, with a reference to what had fallen from Ministers, and considering what was due to decorum on such an occasion, to decline giving their Lordships any further trouble at present, than merely to state his understanding, that it was the intention of Ministers to take the earliest opportunity of bringing this long-protracted negotiation to a speedy issue. However, while he was on his legs, he should take the opportunity, with the permission of their Lordships, to state the grounds of his projected motion. In framing that proposition, he had no idea of attempting to criminate his Majesty's Ministers, on account of any thing which hitherto appeared in their conduct; but he, in common with all their Lordships, and with the country at large, felt that it was desirable and proper, that such a long and protracted negotiation should be brought to a point: his wish, however, was not to do any thing that might embarrass Ministers. At the same time, he might be permitted to doubt whether any good could possibly arise from such procrastinated delay; and on these general grounds it was that he intended to come forward. Having said so much, he wished farther to premise, at the same time, that he should feel it incumbent on him, if it should appear contrary to every expectation held out VOL. III.

subject under their Lordships' consideration. He perfectly coincided with the Noble Earl who had just sat down, in the propriety of his waving his proposed motion under the present circumstances. He was of opinion, that, after the communication of this day, it would be highly unadvisable to make a motion of that kind: when the obvious situation of the country was considered, it could not satisfactorily be discussed. The real grounds on which he thought the House would consent to a farther delay were, in his view of the affair, neither more nor less than these: all who thought they saw reason, from what they knew, to approve of the conduct of Ministers, would of course agree to the proposition; while, on the other hand, others, and those with whom he joined in opinion, were averse from taking any steps which might embarrass his Majesty's Ministers, who were already in a situation of great difficulty. However, in other points of view, those who acted on the principle he had latterly alluded to, might think it proper, and in other circumstances would feel themselves called upon, to urge repeatedly for the necessary information on the real state of the country. With respect to the line of proceeding that day adopted by the Noble Earl, he repeated it was, in his mind, judiciously conceived; but he could not help observing, that, by what transpired that day, it appeared that unforeseen circumstances, as alluded to by a Noble Friend of his, had actually happened, which it was proper the public should be informed of, and, at the earliest opportunity, through the medium of Parliament, the more especially for the purpose of relieving those doubts to which uncertain reports must necessarily give rise,

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, May 12.-(See Minutes, p. 812.) [BILL OF INDEMNITY.]-The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that the papers upon which * Pp

he should ground his motion having been laid more clearly justifiable than the other.-A before the House, Gent. were of course in Noble Lord had given notice yesterday, that possession of the subject: his intention was to he should this day move for certain papers remove for a bill of indemnity for all the per- specting the prohibition with regard to naval sons who issued, or who carried into execu- stores. (Lord Temple said across the House, tion, the orders for prohibiting the exporta- that was not the notice he had given.) The tion of military stores, and for permitting the Attorney General said he had then misunderexportation of a certain quantity of seed corn stood the Noble Lord. The House, he preto Norway. As these two orders depended sumed, were aware how the law stood with upon circumstances that were distinct, he regard to the power of the Crown to prevent would take them separately; and first, with the exportation of naval and military stores. regard to the permission to export a certain That power, to a certain extent, was granted quantity of seed corn to Norway. Represent to the Crown by an act of Charles II. and had ations having been made by the Danish go- been extended to different articles of naval vernment, stating the great distress that was stores by other acts, particularly the acts of experienced in Norway in consequence of the 29th Geo. II. and 33d Geo. III. therefore failure of the harvest last season, and asking there was no question that Government had for permission to export 5oco quarters of bar- the power of preventing the exportation of ley and oats from this country into Norway, as those articles. Under these circumstances, seed corn, the Secretary of State communi- information was received that a considerable cated that request to the Lords of the Trea- quantity of stores was on the point of being sury, and urged the importance of the object, exported to Holland and France; that informand the advanced season of the year. That ation being received, he apprehended there such a request ought to be complied with he could be no doubt but that it was proper to did not suppose would be for a moment doubt-prevent it; but as it was a subject of great ed, when the nature of the application was urgency, it was necessary that no time should considered, and the quarter from which it be lost; a letter was therefore immediately came. The application was made by a neigh-written to the Board of Customs for that purbouring nation, in amity and friendship with pose. On the 6th of April an order was isthis country, and it was only for a small quan- sued to prevent the exportation of gunpowtity of seed corn to rescue Norway from the der, saltpetie, arms, and ammunition, founddanger of a famine. He should do injustice ed upon the 29th Geo. II. and not upon the to the House if he took up their time in ar- 33d Geo. III. and therefore it did not extend guing such a point. The propriety of grant- to naval stores. This omission proceeded ening this request was not only clear upon the tirely from an inadvertence. They were afprinciples of liberality, charity, and good terwards informed that an unusually large neighbourhood, but even the most narrow and quantity of lignum vitae was ordered for excontracted mind must be sensible of the expe-portation, which was also prevented. Under diency of complying with it; because this country was interested in the produce of the harvest of neighbouring countries; because, if their harvests failed, they must be supplied from those sources from which we derived our own importation. These considerations would induce Government at any time to comply with such a request; but this application was made at a time when there was nothing connected with our own markets, which would justify a refusal. The application was made on the 24th of March: all that time the order of Council for prohibiting the exportation of corn was near its expiration, and Government were actually considering whether that order should be renewed or not. Urgent applications were made by the trade against the renewal of the order; but it was renewed upon other considerations besides those which related to the state of our markets. Under these circumstances, an order was issued by the Lords of the Treasury to permit the exportation of the 5000 quarters. It was at first intended that the whole should be exported from Scotland, but it was afterwards thought expedient that a part should be sent from England. With respect to the other order, that depended upon other circumstances --but upon circumstances that made it, if possible,

all these circumstances, he must admit, that in point of form neither of these measures were strictly legal; but he really could not bring his mind to believe that any body could find fault with the conduct of Government upon this occasion. The only point upon which any objection could be made was, that the House of Commons had not been immediately acquainted with it: this certainly should be explained. The necessity of an im mediate communication to Parliament must be measured by the importance of the subject. If it was a case of great doubt, it was a stronger reason for an immediate communication. It was thought expedient that both measures should be communicated to the House at the same time; and Government were of opinion that, under the existing circumstances, it would be better not to make a communication

which might appear to be of an hostile nature. Upon these grounds, he hoped the House would give him leave to bring in the bill which he then moved for.

Mr. COKE (of Norfolk) said, he attributed this measure to the motion he made some time ago for papers relative to the exportation of grain. He did not find fault with Ministers for permitting the exportation of 5000 quar

ters, he was only surprised that the permission to export was not made general. If they had done so, they would have been entitled to the thanks of the country. He understood that permission had been given to particular persons to export this grain: this he considered as being done with a view to influence, for he understood that the permission was given to persons who were Members of that House. Last year there was permission given to reexport some damaged corn, which was actually sent to Barcelona. If ever there was a Mínister who ought to have granted general permission for the exportation of grain, it was the present Minister, on account of the enormous duty he last year laid upon malt; but he was not astonished at it, because no Minister, in his remembrance, had ever attended to the landed interest,

Lord TEMPLE said, he did no object to this motion: he did not think Ministers were wrong in preventing the exportation of naval stores; but he wished to know whether there was any order in existence before against the exportation of military and naval stores.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,

there was no order in existence before the one

alluded to of the 6th of April. That order was intended to extend to naval stores, but it was omitted by inadvertence. On the 31st of March a letter was received by Mr. Vansittart from the Custom-house, stating that inquiries had been made by persons connected with houses on the continent, to know whether there was any order in force to prevent the exportation of saltpetre. It was impossi ble to hold a Council the next day; but he consulted with some of his Majesty's confi. dential servants, and they were unanimously of opinion, that the exportation of saltpetre should be prevented, till the authority of the King in Council could be had. This certainly

clude naval stores.

the unusually short space of one month. As to what the Hon. Gent had said about the selection of persons to export this grain, he could assure the House he knew of no selection; Government did not interfere in any manner; he did not even know the names of the persons till he came into the House, and then he learnt that a Gent. of great respecta bility had been employed, not by Government, but by the Danish Minister.-Here Mr. Fox, shook his head, and smiled.]-The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he asserted this to be the fact, and he was entitled to credit for his assertion. As to what the Gent. alluded to, as happening in 1802, he was totally unacquainted with it; but if the Hon. Gent. would move for any papers upon the subject, he should have no objection to it. On the 24th of March the application was made by the Danish Minister: directions were sent to the customs of Scotland on the Friday, and the House did not sit on the Saturday or Sunday. The next week the question of continuing the order of Council was discussed, and on the 31st of March the order respecting naval and military stores was sent to the Custom-house. These circumstances occurring at the same time, it was thought place till the discussions which were going on better that the promulgation should not take at Paris should be terminated, as a hostile interpretation might be put upon it. He was ready to admit and contend, that there ought not to be any interval between a violation of if it was not justified by public convenience. the law and a communication to Parliament, It remained for the House to consider, whe ther Ministers were justified in what they had done, and whether there was any unbecoming delay in making this communication to Par liament; which certainly would have been delayed a few days longer, if it had not been for the motion of the Hon. Gent.

Lord TEMPLE said, the point he wanted to be informed about was, whether there was any order to prevent the exportation of military and naval stores, between the signing of the preliminary and definitive treaty of peace.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he did not immediately recollect, but he would inquire into the subject.

was not an order of Council, but an order was issued on the 6th of April, which, from the inadvertence he had mentioned, did not in. It was not thought expedient to abstain from promulgating that order at that time, but the Hon. Gent. (Mr. Coke) was mistaken in supposing that it was his motion that had induced Ministers to apply for this measure, though he certainly had in some degree accelerated it. But he wished to state generally, that similar considerations of policy that led to the prohibition of the exportation of naval and military stores, occasioned Mr. Fox said, he did not mean to insinuate the renewing of the order of Council to pre- that the Rt. Hon. Gent. used the power he vent the exportation of grain. He agreed had alluded to from any improper motive with the Hon. Gent. (Mr. Coke), that no whatever, but yet it was apparent that such thing but strong reasons would have justified practices as these were the grounds of abuse the prohibition of the exportation of grain in all the governments of the world. The Rt. under the present state of the markets; and, Hon. Gent. had said, he did not know any of in his opinion, if it had not been for the cir-he persons who had this leave to export corn, cumstances to which he had alluded, the prohibition would not have been renewed; but he wished to observe, that it was renewed for

or had he any share in the recommendation of any individual for that purpose: now suppose the Rt. Hon. Gent. to be as free as he

ately. Had the order to prohibit exportation not been renewed, the exportation would not have taken place under the operation of law.

Mr. RYDER admitted it to be a laudable jea, lousy in any Member to suspect corruption in Government, where there was a foundation for it; but here there was not any, and the suspicion of the Hon. Gent. who spoke lately seemed to be applied to all governments in general, but to have no specification as it re

admitted he was, for he was really as unlikely to have any share in such a transaction as this, as any Minister whatever, yet it was possible to suppose that persons in very inferior situations, who had never been considered the most pure of the people, had some share in recommending particular individuals to the conduct of this business; why then it would be a grievance in that sense, because it was a favour to some individual upon a subject which the public ought to be acquainted with, either by law, or a direct communica-ferred to our own. The Hon. Gent. had said, tion to that House; and therefore this practice was liable to make an unfavourable impression on the public, without imputing, as he certainly did not impute to the Hon. Gent. or the lowest person connected with him, the least impropriety of motive. He thought, however, that application should have been made to Parliament at once, and as the thing had happened five weeks ago, some inconvenience had arisen by not coming to Parliament; nor did he see the connexion between the points of the exportation of corn and the other political topics stated by the Rt. Hon. Gent. and which prudence had required to have been concealed. He thought the whole of the argument laboured very much in that part on the other side. The Rt. Hon. Gent. said they were connected, but he had adduced no argument to shew their connexion. He did not object to any thing done by Administration, but to the manner of doing it: he thought it should either have been done by act of Parliament, or a communication should have been made to the House, and it shoulding have been done under the sanction of the House; for he owned his inclination to be jealous of acts of indemnity for those things which might have been previously made the subject of communication to Parliament, the sanction of which might have made indemnity unnecessary, and that the more especially on subjects materially connected with the agri-things had a very serious effect; for a man cultural interests of the country.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the Hon. Gent. had stated, that the argument laboured in that point where he said there was a connexion in the cases he had stated, that of the prohibition of naval and military stores, and the exportation of grain. Had it not been for those causes which produced both prohibitions, the order of Council respecting the prohibition, and the exportation of grain, would not have been renewed; but at the time the Lords of the Treasury consented to permit the exportation of grain, it was matter of great doubt with the Privy Council whether they should or should not renew the prohibition in one of these events, namely, the not determining to renew the prohibition, the application of the Danish Minister would have been unnecessary; and it was on that ground he conceived his Majesty's Ministers were justified in not coming to Parliament immedi

that Government should have come to the House at once with a communication upon the subject. Now if Government had intended to act corruptly, they would not have come to Parliament at all with the communi cation the Hon. Gent. seemed to wish; nor would their so coming have prevented them from acting corruptly in this case, if they had been so minded: for if Parliament had been applied to for leave to export 5000 quarters of barley, all that Parliament could have done would have been to give that leave, and then who should procure and furnish it, would have rested with the Danish Minister, or it would have rested with Government to employ the person who was to export it. In neither case would the interference of Parliament have taken place to prevent corruption, if any such had been intended, which certainly there was not.. He then took notice of the order in Council for exportation, and approved of what had been done respecting it; and concluded with observing, that he could not help think

there never was an attack upon Government more feebly made than this, nor any that was less supported.

Mr. Fox said, that if the thing had been done by Parliament, instead of being done by Ministers, it would not have given them power to favour any persons whatever: besides, these

having a great deal of corn, and wishing to export, and another was allowed to do so, and no communication was made of it, he would naturally say, why should one man be allowed to do this, and another should not? Now this inconvenience would be obviated by a communication to the House, for then the thing would be open.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Friday, May 13-(See Minutes, p. 812.)

[FINANCE.]-Lord KING rose pursuant to the notice he had given, to state his sentiments with respect to this important subject. He should not, he said, have come forward, had any other Peer, more able and more conver sant on the subject than himself, appeared inclined at least, in his mind, sufficiently early to agitate the discussion. Their Lordships were aware, that a variety of financial ace

system, particularly with respect to finance, pursued by Ministers, in concealing from the country its real state in that respect, and holding forth the hopes of seeing a surplus, when in fact there existed an alarming deficit. Upon the whole, he deemed the general subject well worthy the serious attention and minute consideration of their Lordships; and in that view he should move for the appointment of a committee for the purpose of inquiring into the real situation of the finances of the country, and to report their opinion of the same to the House.

counts, some of a voluminous nature, were | ing towards a conclusion, he censured the on their Lordships' table. These were ordered, for the most part, on the motions of a Noble Lord opposite to him; but in what he was about to submit to their Lordships' consideration, he should chiefly confine himself to those accounts presented previous to the delivery of his Majesty's message, and from which too flattering deductions had been made, with a view, no doubt, of raising the public confidence; but under impressions of public duty, and with a view to evince to the country its real situation in point of finance, he felt it incumbent on him to examine with strictness and precision, and the results which he should be able to make, he doubted not, would be of a very different nature from the deduction to which he had alluded. The Noble Lord then proceeded to a detailed examination of those points of the accounts upon the table, to which he said he should direct their Lordships' attention. With respect to a part of these, his object seemed to point out some great and important differences in the modes of stating the heads of revenue, expenditure, &c. with a view to evince the necessity for a subsequent detailed and deliberate inquiry. From his view of these items, he argued that the different heads were in some instances, as those of income, revenue, &c. over-rated; in those items which regarded the expenditure and disbursements, under-rated. To establish these positions, his Lordship entered into a variety of calculations and details, which, as they mostly consisted of comparative statements, were the more complex and abstruse: we therefore, under the apprehension of unintentional mis-statement, shall not attempt to follow his Lordship. He touched, but not weightily, upon the statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and entered into some calculations to shew the erroneous tendency of part of his statements. He then adverted to what had fallen from a Noble Lord opposite to him on a former night, respecting the general subject, and contended that there could by no means be such an aggregate as a sum exceeding sixteen millions, applicable to public purposes. In arguing this point, his Lordship seemed to say, that the British and Irish expenditure were not sufficiently discriminated. He then commented upon the real circumstances of the consolidated fund, and the state of actual expenditure, and contended, instead of there existing a considerable sur-the bounties paid on account of corn and rice, plus, as argued on the part of the Minister, there was a real deficit to a considerable amount, inasmuch as there remained, after a due and candid statement of the whole supply and ways and means, a sum of only 9,172,000l. to cover an expenditure of more than sixteen millions. He then took a view of the different ways in which the national income could be equalized, one of which means, namely, an appropriation of the sinking fund, he thought none could dare to propose. Draw

Lord AUCKLAND rose, and combated the positions of the Noble Lord who had just sat down. He contended, that no satisfactory ground whatever had been laid down by his Lordship for the institution of such an inquiry. He took a comprehensive view of the principal financial disquisitions which had taken place since the accession of the late Administration to power, and particularly dwelt upon the proceedings of the committee of 1786, and exhibited a regular financial history of the country since that period. With a view of bringing the subject fully before the House, he had moved for the production of a variety of documents, from a perusal of which any individual Peer could thoroughly satisfy himself there existed not the least necessity for the inquiry proposed by the Noble Lord. The statements with which he proposed then to trouble their Lordships, on the particular points in discussion, were comparatively reducible to a small compass. He reminded their Lordships, the discussion did not originate with him: a Noble Earl opposite was the first mover for accounts; but upon what had been said, he thought it his duty to state his own sentiments, and to move for additional documents, in order to bring the subject duly before the House. He thought, that instead of there being a considerable minus, as was asserted, he could evince there was a surplus of between three and four millions. In endeavouring to substantiate this position, he contended that the Noble Lord opposite had calculated upon erroneous grounds; the Irish part of the expenditure had nothing to do with his statement. He entered into a consideration of the different heads of the revenue, and dwelt with some stress upon the article of

the importance and extent of which never seemed to have been adequately considered. He argued, that every thing which occurred within the year made part of the real income of that period, and in the aggregate calcu lated, that amount would be found to exceed 34,345,000l. He then proceeded to the consideration of the consolidated fund, with respect to which we understood his Lordship to say, there existed a true and real surplus of more than seven millions. Recurring again