HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, December 9 [MINUTES.]-Counsel were heard at considerable length for the Appellant, on the Appeal Cause from the Court of Chancery, J.I. Keighly v. the East India Company. After which their lordships deferred the farther hearing of the case till Tuesday.—Mr. Hobhouse, accompanied by several Members, brought up the following bills from the Commons, viz. The Annual Indemnity Bill, the Malt Tax, the Place and Pension Duty, the Sugar Bounties Drawback, the East India Bonds Duty, the Bank of Ireland Restriction, the Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill, and the Irish Martial Law Continuation Bills. They were severally read a first time; the two last-mentioned bills were, on the motion of lord Hawkesbury, ordered to be printed; his lordship at the same time gave notice of his intention to move for the second reading of those bills on Monday next. [VOLUNTEERS.]-Earl Darnley, previous to the Order of the Day being read, wished to obtain some information on a subject confessedly of the highest importance: seeing the noble secretary of state in his place, he would take that opportunity. The subject, in his contemplation, was such as not only that house, but many thousands of his Majesty's subjects must regard with the utmost concern. He alluded to the volunteers, respecting whom, he begged leave to ask, if it was the intention of his Majesty's ministers to propose any general regulations previous to the ensuing recess. Lord Hawkesbury shortly replied, that he knew of no intention at present on the part of his Majesty's government, to propose any specific measure, previous to the recess, of the nature to which the noble earl alluded. Earl Darnley resumed the topic: he by no means wished, he said, to pin the noble Secretary of State down to any particular time, for proposing such a measure as he had alluded to; he was fully aware, not only of the importance, but of the delicacy of the subject. He repeated the anxious view in which it was very generally regarded. It was not his intention, however, then to go into any detail upon the subject, but there were one or two prominent points, which struck him so forcibly, that he could not refrain from adverting to them, and endeavouring to press them on the attention of the noble Secretary, as requiring the most serious consideration of his Majesty's ministers, and calling for adequate regulation. He first adverted to the con sideration of the way in which the services of several corps were originally accepted on the part of government, which certainly appeared to him to have been done or liberal principles, with respect to allowances, &c. but in regard to those he had to ob serve, that a system had been latterly acted upon, which appeared to him to be the reverse of the former conduct of government in that respect. The second consideration to which the noble earl principally adverted, and which he seemed to regard as one of extreme delicacy and importance, was the idea of the force in question, appearing, in some points of view, as a species of military democracy. He thought it incumbent on him thus early to throw out those considerations, as meriting the most serious and anxious attention on the part of his Majesty's government. The noble earl also alluded to certain difficulties which had arisen under the present volunteer system, which he thought it would be important speedily to obviate: what he seemed principally to advert to, was the regulation of exemptions, &c. Lord Hawkesbury, in the course of his reply, observed, that he should avoid at present entering into any detailed view whatever of the subject. He agreed with the noble earl as to the great importance of the subject; it was one therefore which naturally attracted the serious attention of his Majesty's government: their lordships, however, would be at the same time aware of the complexity and intricate nature of the general subject, the variety of details. which it embraced, and the correspondent difficulty of forming adequate regulations. He agreed also with the noble Earl, that certain difficulties had arisen in the progress of that system of measures, but of that nature as that they could not fairly be expect ed to be in the contemplation at the time, of those by whom, under the circumstances of the case, the bill was originally framed. He repeated, that the subject certainly oc cupied the serious attention of his Majesty's ministers; but while he made this avowal, he wished to be understood, as by no means committing himself with respect to the introduction of any specific measure upon the subject. [BANK RESTRICTION BILL.]-The order of the day being read, their lordships resolved into a Committee on the Bank Restriction Bill, Lord Walsingham in the chair. The different clauses and provisions of the bill were regularly gone through, and approved by the Committee.-On the consideration of the Preamble of the Bill, which this opinion was founded. An excessive multiplication of Bank Notes, so long as they cannot be exchanged for specie, had precisely the same effect as a debasement of the current coin; and as the bullion price of silver was the most accurate test of the purity of a coinage, it was the best standard of the degree of depreciation produced by an excessive paper currency. In ordinary circumstances the bullion price of -ilver seldom much exceeded the mint price, or 5s. 2d. per ounce, or if there was any occasional excess, it was not of long continuance. But, since the year 1798, it had uniformly exceeded that price, being at some periods (in 1800 and 1801) 5s. Ild. and 6s. At present it was 5s. Sd. being an excess of 9 per cent. above the mint price. He knew that there were other causes which might produce a temporary effect on the price of bullion; but he considered this uniform and unexampled increase of price, c.rresponding, as it did, with the increase in quantity of Bank Notes, and the depression of foreign exchanges, as affording a decisive evidence of misconduct in the Directors of the Fank. His lordship illustrated this position by a great variety of calculations and details. He said, that he should propose an amendment to the bill, calculated to give publicity to the proceedings of the Bank, which might operate as a salutary check upon the Directors. He proposed, that the Directors should be obliged to publish quarterly, in the London Gazette, during the period of the restriction, an account of the amount of their notes in circulation on the 25th of each of the three preceding months. By comparing the amount of the notes with the bullion price of silver, and the state of foreign exchange, the public would be enabled to judge at the time, whether the abuse was increasing to any pernicious extent. His lordship concluded by moving a clause in the Committee to this effect. Lord King said, that if he had been present at the second reading of the bill, he should have thought it his duty to have urged, at some length, those arguments of justice and policy which struck his mind. forcibly, as militating against the principle of the bill. The present not being the regular time for discussing the general principle, he should say very little on that part of the subject. He could not, however, avoid expressing his surprize, that a measure of this importance should be so much treated as a matter of course; that the bill should be read twice within two days after it had been sent from the other House, and that it should have been read for the second time without any previous notice, and without even the usual formality of a few introductory remarks from one of his Majesty's ministers. No inquiry was instituted; no reason was assigned for the passing of the bill, nor was any information laid before the House to prove the expediency of persevering in a system, which violated all general principles, and could only be justified by the most urgent necessity. Some very strong reasons ought surely to be assigned for continuing, to a distant and indefinite period, a measure which had not been found necessary in former wars, nor at any period prior to the year 1797, when the restriction was first adopted. It was at that time acknowledged to be a measure of the most questionable nature, and open to the most dangerous abuses. It was now asserted by ministers, and the partisans of the Bank, that the privilege had not been abused, and that no public inconvenience had been experienced. His lordship thought, that it was a great deal too much to take all this for granted, and that it ought, prior to a continuance of the measure, to be made the subject of inquiry. He was convinced, for his own part, that the contrary was the fact; and, though the abuse had not been flagrant or excessive, that the Bank had yielded, in a certain degree, to the temptation, and Lord Hawkesbury deemed it unnecessary extended the quantity of their notes beyond to follow the noble lord, through the greatthe proper limits. By the present measure, est part of what he had advanced, as being the interest of the Bank was put in opposi- partly applicable to the principle of the bill, tion to its duty; and in such a competition which was not then under discussion, and it was not difficult to conjecture which as partly foreign from the subject regularly principle was likely to prevail among a under consideration: there existed, howcommercial body. Whilst the measure was ever, a great and an obvious necessity for recent, the Directors appeared to have con- the present measure: the bill proceeded on ducted themselves with great prudence; similar grounds with that of 1798, and at but since the end of the year 1798, there least an equal necessity existed for the Rewas reason to believe, that they had uni- striction now as then. The period of the formly, though in different degrees, been present bill was somewhat different from guilty of a breach of their trust. that of the above year, and was in its naceeded to state shortly the principles upon ture more definite. He differed from the He pro noble lord as to the causes assigned by him for the unfavourable state of the Exchange at different periods. He had some serious objections to the adoption of the regulation proposed by the noble lord; first, there was no such provision deemed necessary in any of the former bills which had been enacted on the subject, though any reasons which might now apply for its adoption, obtained at former periods in equal force.-Secondly, as the Bank Directors had never, in the smallest degree, abused the discretionary power vested in them, they were, on the contrary, always most willing to come forward with every necessary information on the subject, and they never shrunk from any inquiry whatever. He additionally objected to the proposition, as it would tend (though perhaps such a thing might not be in the noble lord's contemplation) to reflect upon the Directors, a body who, so far from meriting any reflection upon their conduct, had uniformly discharged the trusts reposed in them with prudence, caution, and circumspection. However, the House would be aware, that in negativing the motion of the noble lord, neither he, nor any other peer, was precluded from coming forward at subsequent periods with motions for specific information upon the subject; and, indeed, such proceedings had taken place, in many instances, on the suggestions of members of both Houses of Parliament. On the whole, he deemed it his duty to oppose the noble lord's motion. Lord King observed, in reply, that if he had not been fully understood by the noble lord, he had no difficulty in distinctly stating, that he imputed blame to the Bank, and it was on this account that he had moved the amendment. He thought that the principle of publicity would be better secured, and the Bank Directors more effectually admonished of the importance of their trust, by a positive parliamentary enactment, than by leaving it to the discretion of any individual peer, who might choose to move for an account of their notes. He wished it to ap. pear upon the face of the bill, that the danger of abuse was foreseen by the legislature, and guarded against by the only expedient of which the case would admit. With respect to the observation, that such a clause was unusual, and that it had not found a place in former bills, he would only say, that it was a principle which militated against all legislative improvements whatever. It was one of those general remarks which applied equally to every new proposition, and was, therefore, undeserving of attention upon any. Lord Hawkesbury contended, that such a consideration was a reason against the adoption of the clause, inasmuch as the omission of the provision in the former bills, was productive of no injurious tendency whatever, nor of any ground of complaint. With respect to the unfavourable state of the course of Exchange at the periods alluded to, it was by no means to be attributed to the issue of paper from the Bank, but in a greater degree to the immense sums which were necessarily sent out of the country at the time for the payment of subsidies, and in consequence of the alarming scarcity which then prevailed.-The clause was nega ived. On the question heing put respecting the third reading of the bill, Lord Grenville expressed his opinion, without meaning in the least to resist the progress of the bill, that the passing of such a measure as the present should not be regarded as a matter of course in that House. He should have to offer a few observations, which he thought it incumbent on him to advance, on the occasion of the third reading, respecting the measure, and more espe cially on points of considerable importance connected with the subject of the bill. He should therefore propose that the bill be read a third time on Monday.-Adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, December 9. [MINUTES.] The Speaker acquainted the House, that in obedi-nce to the order of the House made on the 10th of August last, he had transmitted the Vote of Thanks of the House to the different Lords Lieutenant of Counties in Gt. Britain, and to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to be by them communicated to the Officers and Privates of the different Corps in the respective parts of the United Empire; and that he had received, through the Lords Lieutenant of Counties, and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, answers expressive of the thanks of the different Corps for the notice which Parliament had been pleased to take of their zeal and exertion. Mr. Forster, from the Exchequer, presented at the bar an account of the sums of money issued by his Majesty pursuant to addresses of the House, which had not been made good by Parliament. Ordered to lie on the table.-Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the Portugal Wine Bonding Bill, which was received, and read a third time and passed.-The Malt Tax Bill, the £5,000,000 Exchequer Bills Bill, the Ex piring Laws Bill, the Irish Provisions Bill, Irish Sugar Drawback Bill, English Sugar Drawback Bill, Irish Promissory Note Bill, Curates' Relief Bill, and Irish Oats Distillation Bill, were read a third time, passed, and ordered to the Lords.-The London Dock Bill was read a second time and referred to a Select Committee.Mr. Secretary Yorke presented at the bar a return of the Volunteer and Yeomanry Corps, as far as the same could be made out, in compliance with an order of the House, dated the 10th of August. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.Sir F. Burdett brought up the Pancras Overseer's Bill. Read a first time; ordered to be read a second time.-A new writ was ordered, on the motion of Mr. Sargent, for the election of a Burgess to serve in Parliament for the Borough of Westloe, in the room of Thomas Smith, Esq. who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. ARMY ESTIMATES.-The Secretary at War (Mr. Bragge) moved the order of the day that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, and that the Estimates presented by him on a former day be referred thereto.- The House having accordingly resolved itself into a Committee, Mr. Hobhouse in the chair: The Secretary at War rose, and observed, that notwithstanding the magnitude and importance of the subject to which the estimates now under consideration referred, he should not feel it necessary for him to take up much of the time of the Committee in adverting to the different items, or explaining the nature and grounds of the different estimates to which it was his duty to direct their attention. It would be altogether needless to dwell upon the particulars, because the estimates voted last session, comprehended nearly the whole of those now produced, and gentlemen having been fami liar with the nature and extent of the former, it was the less incumbent on him to Occupy much of their time in his statement and explanation of the latter. He was bound, however, to acquaint the Committee, that the estimates now before them did not comprehend the whole military establishment of the year, because, from the nature and extent of the different services included in it, and the possible variation which might arise from a possible alteration of the circumstances and state of the country, the whole could not with accuracy be ascertained, so as to be produced to Parliament in the shape of an unquestionable document. He could assure them, nevertheless, that and garrisons in the United Kingdom. It would be in the recollection of the House, that the number voted for that service last session, parly in an early part of it, and partly in the month of June, amounted in the whole to 108,901 men. The force now proposed to be voted for that service amounted to 167,669, between which, and the number voted last year, the Committee would perceive there was a difference of 53,768. But the major part of that difference would be made up by the army of reserve, which amounted to 39,467 men. This force was distributed either in augmentation of the old battalions, or in forming eighteen second battalions of 1000 men each, or in sixteen battalions of reserve, consisting of about 750 each. This statement would be sufficient to give the Committce a clear idea of the augmentation, which was proposed to be made to the regular miliary establishment. The Life Guards were to be augmented by 12,456, the twenty-four Regiments of Dragoons were to be augmented by a proportion, which, in the whole, would amount to 4272 men; and the sixteen Regiments of Foot Guards were to have an augmentation, not exceeding 2000 men in the whole, making an augmentation of about eighteen thou sand. This was the only addition that was proposed to be now made to the regular army, with the exception of a small addition of 220 or 250 men to some of the old regiments of the line, and an inconsiderable addition that was to be made to some garrison battalions and fencible regiments, which would not in the whole amount to any maaterial augmentation.-The next head to which it was his duty to call the attention of the Committee, was certainly a large one, he meant the general staff establishment. that establishment. The only other head to which he found it necessary to advert particularly related to the Volunteers. He should consider them under two heads, first for G. Britain, next for Ireland. Any calculation under the head of G. Britain, would necessarily be loose and subject to much unavoidable inaccuracy, as it must necessarily depend on so many circumstances, and be regulated by the a tual exigency of the country. He did not pretead, therefore, to submit an exact and accurate estimate of the expense under this head, though it was calculated as nearly as possible on the presumed extent, to which the service of the year might require it to be carried. For the Volunteer Corps, he estimated that a sum of 730,000l. would be necessary, from the 25th of Dec. 1803, to the 25th of Dec. 1804; but it was here necessary for him to state, that as the clothing had been provided for in the expenditure for the present year, that item made no part of the estimate. The estimate had been calculated for the number to which the Volunteer Corps were supposed to amount, but by the account which had been this day presented to the House, it appeared that the actual number far exceeded the supposed strength of the volunteer force. By this account, it appeared, that the Volunteer Corps of G. Britain amounted to 379.043 men. The estimates of the expences of such a body, must necessarily be complex and difficult to be ascertained exactly, as the dif ferent rates of pay, according to the different periods of the year at which they came forward, should be taken into the account, as well as the nature of the service, whether permanent, or only for exercise, on which they may be employed. The sum, therefore, at which the estimate was taken, would not appear large, when it was recollected But when the situation of the coun- that the number for which it was calculated, try and the circumstances of the essential was only 320,000. Of the Volunteer force services rendered by that department, were 45,314 served without pay; 42,500 infanconsidered, he trusted it would not appear try, and 2,500 cavalry. Great part of the excessive. The sum at which this service clothing had been voted in June, and therewas estimated, was 154,647 l. a sum though fore was not in the estimate: but the allowlarge, not extravagant, when it was recolance of 1s. per day, for 20 days service, for lected, that so many brigade officers were the purpose of training, to such as should found necessary to train the volunteer force accept pay, was estimated at 190,000.of the country. The embodied militia for Agency Officers, and Field Officers, in conG. Britain and Ireland, amounted to 109,947. sequence of the alteration that in each reThe Res rve Army of Ireland amounted to spect had been found necessary in the origi9970 men, of which 7055 were to be at- nal regulations, which had been made in teched to the old regiments by small additions June, required an additional expense, which of 220 and 230 to each:battalion: The dif- did not, however, exceed 20,000l. This, frence between that number and the whole he was aware, was a loose and rough estiforce, he allowed, would volunteer into the mate of the expense that would be necessary, line. Thinly addition proposed this year but he was persuaded that it was rather unwas about 1827 to the dragoon guards onder than over what the service would require. |