the Government or to the Indians for lands belonging to the Santa Fe Railroad and private people; is that correct? Mr. BALMER. The lands that they want to transfer to the Indians is land now owned by outside interests. Senator WHEELER. That is, they want to exchange land belonging to the Indians for outside lands; is that correct? Mr. BALMER. No; not lands belonging to the Indians. It is vice versa. Senator FRAZIER. What you do want to do is to buy the lands belonging to the railroad, these railroad sections, and put them into the Indian reservation? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir; either buy or, as I understand it, the railroads have agreed to take lands in lieu of their present lands at some other location. Senator ASHURST. Land of equal value and equal area? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. And public lands elsewhere? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. Tell us, would such an exchange be a good thing for the Indians or not? Mr. BALMER. Why, yes; it certainly is. Senator WHEELER. Are the lands on this reservation checkerboarded at the present time? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. We start over here and work over there [indicating] starting on the Little Colorado and running east to a point north of Holbrook. Senator ASHURST. How many sections? Senator WHEELER. Are those townships or sections? Mr. BALMER. Townships. Senator WHEELER. Tell us how many townships, for the record. Mr. BALMER. There are about 70 townships. Senator WHEELER. On this reservation? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. How many of them are checker boarded and how many are owned by private interests? Mr. BALMER. The west half of the reservation lying in Coconino County is practically all unsurveyed. Senator WHEELER. Is it Indian land or privately owned? Mr. BALMER. As I understand it, it is half owned by the Santa Fe Railway and the other half is Government owned. Senator WHEELER. Now, is it checker boarded, is what I am trying to get at? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. It is proposed that the Government buy the land belonging to the Santa Fe or that they exchange it? Mr. BALMER. In this particular case the Government is trying to purchase it from the Santa Fe. I do not know whether they have the deed in their possession or not, but they have done some work on it. Senator WHEELER. Do these Indians need more land on this reservation? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. That is, they need more land in order to take care of the sheep and the cattle that they have got? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. How much land does it take, for instance, per head, for a sheep on this reservation? Mr. BALMER. Oh, about 10 to 12 acres. Senator WHEELER. Ten to twelve acres. How much per cow? Senator WHEELER. Forty-five and fifty acres. Have you ever figured it up as to how much they have per head at the present time? Mr. BALMER. No. Senator WHEELER. Are these Indians on the increase now? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. Are their cattle and sheep on the increase now? Mr. BALMER. No, sir. Senator WHEELER. Why not? Mr. BALMER. On account of the grass shortage. We have had to cut down. Senator WHEELER. Because of the fact that you have not got land enough then to support the sheep that you have already got you have got to cut down the number of the sheep; is that it? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. When you cut down the number of sheep that these Indians have, then you cut down their subsistence; is that correct? Mr. BALMER. Subsistence or income. Senator WHEELER. Income is subsistence, is it not? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. Then you say the tribe is increasing? Senator WHEELER. Then if they continue to make a living for themselves they have to have more land; is that correct? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. Are there any white people here that have any land at all? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. I mean outside of the Santa Fe Railroad? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. How many of them have got land up here? Senator WHEELER. Just three or four? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator FRAZIER. Land that they bought from the railroad com pany? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. They bought it from the railroad company? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. Do you know how much the Government proposes to pay per acre to the railroad company? Mr. RHOADS. The Santa Fe is asking $1 an acre. Some of the private interests want $3. There is the New Mexico-Arizona Land Co., I think, who are asking $2 now. Senator WHEELER. But the railroad company only ask $1? Mr. RHOADS. The Santa Fe is asking only $1. Mr. GRORUD. Congress has appropriated a certain amount of money for the purchase of these lands; is that not true? Mr. RHOADS. There was an authorization for a certain amount of money several years ago. Then the appropriations have been made from time to time as the tribal funds are received. Mr. GRORUD. Would it not be better Mr. RHOADS. There is now a gratuity appropriation of $100,000. Mr. GRORUD. Would it not be better to purchase these lands at one time instead of stringing it over a period of years? Mr. BALMER. I believe so, if we could handle it on some sort of a reimbursable plan, or some other system might be used in the purchase of it. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Let me correct one thing that has been stated about the $100,000 as a gratuity appropriation. An authorization of Government money on a reimbursable basis of $100,000 was authorized in the new bill. Senator WHEELER. Let me ask you this, for the purpose of the record: Are these Indians self-supporting or do they have to depend upon the Government to help support them? Mr. BALMER. They are self-supporting. Senator WHEELER. Have they ever had gratuities from the Government? Have they ever had anything given to them in the way of doles or money? Mr. BALMER. Yes; we have issued out a few dollars' worth of stuff. Senator WHEELER. Rations? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir; but nothing to speak of. It has gone mostly to the old blind Indians. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Are these among the very best working Indians in the whole United States, more self-supporting and more industrious than any other group we have in the United States? Mr. GRORUD. Do the Indians claim they own the land before the Santa Fe Railroad Co. grant? Is it not a fact that the Indians claim they owned these lands before the Santa Fe Railroad Co. acquired the lands? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir; they do claim that. Senator ASHURST. These lands were granted by Congress in this way: Every alternate section-that is to say, every odd-numbered section-for a certain number of miles on each side of the railroad was granted in July, 1866, and although it appeared to be a grant in futoro, the courts held that it was a grant in presenti and that the title passed on the date of the act. Senator WHEELER. When was the Indian reservation established? Mr. BALMER. In 1868. Senator ASHURST. This particular tract was in 1901. Mr. GRORUD. Now, you also have allotted some of these Indians on public domain within the boundaries of your reservation? Mr. BALMER. On the east half here we have. From the line here where the survey stops over to the east end of our reservation we have made several allotments. Senator WHEELER. Do these Indians want to be allotted generally and would it be a practical proposition to allot them if you could? Mr. BALMER. If we allotted each and every Indian the 160 acres that he would be entitled to and put a fence around it, he would be able to raise probably 15 head of sheep. Senator WHEELER. How much do they average at the present time? I mean each family. Mr. BALMER. The average family will run around 100 or around 125 head. Senator WHEELER. Are there some families that have very large herds and others that have practically none? Mr. BALMER. There are practically none of our Indians have what we would class as large herds. Senator WHEELER. They are pretty evenly divided so far as families are concerned? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. One or two Indians are getting the benefit of the reservation while the others are going without; is that true? Mr. BALMER. No, sir. Senator WHEELER. Is there any opposition on the part of any one to the purchase by the Government of the Santa Fe lands that you know of? Mr. BALMER. There was some opposition a couple of years ago. Mr. BALMER. By the county commissioners. Senator WHEELER. By the county commissioners? Mr. BALMER. And the citizens of the State. Senator ASHURST. Would you care to have an explanation as to the opposition? Senator WHEELER. Yes. Senator ASHURST. The opposition arose to the purchase because obviously it would forever withdraw from taxation the lands that were theretofore in private holding and thus subject to taxation. In other words, it would diminish the taxable resources of the county. The matter has been composed, and I understand the board of supervisors have passed a resolution consenting to the purchase. Am I correct about that? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Can you furnish a copy of that resolution? Mr. BALMER. I have not a copy of it. That was not handed to me. Senator ASHURST. No act would have passed Congress authorizing any purchase of lands for Indian reservation purpose in Arizona unless the board of supervisors of the particular county had consented thereto. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. It would be desirable to have that inserted in the record. Senator ASHURST. Many of the proposed acquisitions came in the nature of exchanges rather than purchases. Senator WHEELER. Well, is that all the land problem you have, which you have explained to us here? Mr. BALMER. I would like to put it up to the committee in this way: We have approximately 1,800 Indians and approximately 55,000 head of sheep and 1,500 head of cattle and about 1,000 head of goats. The land in question owned by outsiders is now being used by our Indians and has been, therefore, if the land from the outside interests is secured, in one sense of the word, it is not giving the Indians any chance to increase their flocks. Senator WHEELER. He has already been using the Santa Fe lands? Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. And has the Santa Fe ever collected any money for the use of it? Mr. BALMER. This year we have leases now being prepared. We intend to lease that land from outside interests, the Santa Fe Railroad Co. and the New Mexico-Arizona Land Co. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Do those leases carry an option to buy? Senator FRAZIER. How much will the leases cost? Senaor THOMAS. What do the taxes amount to? Mr. BALMER. I imagine it would average something over 2 cents. Senator THOMAS. That is about the right proportion, is it; that is, the lands are making about one-half the taxes throughout the country generally? Senator WHEELER. I do not get the situation clearly and it seems to me you ought to give it to us. Do you have land enough for these Indians or do you have to purchase more land for the Indians? Mr. BALMER. We need to purchase more land. Senator WHEELER. How much more land do you have to purchase and where are the lands available that you have to purchase if you want to purchase them, or what have you in mind with reference to it? Mr. BALMER. The land available right adjacent to the reservation is very limited and to move these Indians to some other location would meet with opposition. So we are really up against a mighty tough proposition. I would say, however, roughly, after we did secure control of this 1,000,000 acres of land that we need at least another million acres of land for our present population. That would be in order to bring our ranges back to where they should be. Our ranges are just about shot. Senator WHEELER. Of course, if you put these wells in, that will help your reservation, will it not? Mr. BALMER. It will help in many ways; yes, sir; but it will not help altogether the grass situation. Senator THOMAS. Are there any forest reservation lands available that might be used by these Indians that you know of? Mr. BALMER. Next door to us, in the vicinity of Flagstaff I believe there are. Senator FRAZIER. Adjoining the reservation? Mr. BALMER. No; there is a small strip in between. Mr. BALMER. Practically so. Senator WHEELER. Would not the Indians be able to use that land or to lease it from the Government for grazing purposes? Would that be practicable? Mr. BALMER. If the Forestry Department saw fit to lease it. we would like to lease some of it. Senator WHEELER. What do they do with it now? What is the Forestry Service doing with it now? Mr. BALMER. I do not know. |