Senator FRAZIER. Any other statement you wish to make to the committee?

Doctor HAGERTY. Increase the hospital bed capacity of this reservation. It is now about 84 beds. We should have a hospital fully equipped with X ray at the hospital; we should have two other hospitals, one situated near Toadlena and one to the northwest of this reservation, in which territory there is no medical work being done at the present time. These hospitals need not be as well equipped as the general hospital, but we can get them from the local community in here.

Senator FRAZIER. Thank you.

(Witness excused.)

DASHNE CHISCHILEGE was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. Your full name.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Dashne Chischilege.

Senator FRAZIER. You are chairman of the tribal council?
Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. How long have you been chairman of the council?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. I was elected in the fall of 1928 at Winslow. Senator FRAZIER. That is just the tribal council for the Northern Navajo jurisdiction?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. That is the tribal council for the whole Navajo Tribe.

Senator FRAZIER. For the whole Navajo Tribe?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you a statement you want to make on behalf of your people?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Very well. Proceed. You have been in the council I take it and have talked these matters over that you want to bring before the committee?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Very well; make your statement.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. As chairman of the Navajo tribal council, and being in contact with most of the Indians throughout the reservation, what my people need most right now and for the future is more land. Our country is overgrazed and my people are increasing. With what land we occupy now in a few years more there will not be hardly any room. As the people are increasing there will not be no more room for us. Therefore, we urge our Government to give us more land. That should be either by congressional act or by purchasing it or by exchanges. That is one of the things.

Also my council has urged the Government to give us a strip of land along the Colorado River known as the Piute strip. This land is situated in the State of Utah. Some of the councilmen, or most of the councilmen, have written to Mr. Bratton and I think to the chairman of this committee, Mr. Frazier, when this legislation was in progress last winter about this Piute strip. My people do not know yet whether the legislation passed and the land is ours or not. Senator FRAZIER. The legislation did not pass.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. No; I think it was favorably reported in the Senate. No action was taken on it in any way in the House. Congressman Colton has interested himself very much in the matter and in meeting with various people last autumn a plan was worked out which I believe will be favorably considered by the next Congress, from all indications.

Senator WHEELER. That land is practically all occupied at the present time by Navajos, is it not?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir; it has always been occupied by the Navajos and some Piutes.

Senator WHEELER. Let me ask you this: They tell me you have a lot more horses out here on the reservation than you need and that they are eating up a great deal of the grass on the range. A stockman stated that one wild horse ate as much grass as five sheep would. Now, do your Indians realize that in view of the conditions which now exist on your reservation that it is necessary to get rid of these wild horses?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. I believe a majority of them will say yes.

Senator WHEELER. Well, now, how about the council that represents the tribe?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. The council is in favor of getting rid of some of the worthless ponies.

Senator WHEELER. Well, has your council passed any resolutions as to it vet?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. I think the council did pass a resolution in favor of reducing the ponies throughout the Navajo country.

Senator WHEELER. If they have passed a resolution with reference to it, I think the superintendent or whoever is in charge of the situation ought to go and get busy and reduce them. Your own people ought to realize that the only reason we are trying to have them killed off is because of the fact that it is a benefit to you Indians to kill them off so they will have more grazing for their sheep.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. We want to help you; we want to help your people, but we can not help you unless they are willing to help themselves by getting rid of the surplus horses which are roaming the reservation.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. There is also a strip up here in the northern end of this reservation, a strip there which has been used by cattlemen all these years. The Utes now occupy it. It is called the Ute pasture, but it is used mostly by the white cattlemen. The Navajos have lived up on this part of the reservation, a good many have, and they have been asking the office about it, if it could be transferred to them, that they need it in the winter time. The Utes do not use it and every year they lease it and we need that land. This land is situated in the State of New Mexico.

Senator WHEELER. It is land leased now by the Government to the white cattlemen; is that the idea?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. You mean the land that is leased by Decker Bros.?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Owned by the Utes?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. It is called the Ute pasture. It is in the State of New Mexico. The Navajos do not want the land in Colorado; they want this land in New Mexico.

Senator WHEELER. But that belongs to the Ute Tribe of Indians. Congress would not have any right to take it away from the Utes and give it to your tribe unless the Government or somebody paid the Utes for it, because it belongs to them and is their property just as your whole reservation is your property. It does not make any difference whether it is in New Mexico or Colorado.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. The councilmen propose to buy it from the Utes. They propose to buy it from the Utes.

Senator WHEELER. That would be all right if the Utes are willing to sell it.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. The Utes day before yesterday expressed the desire to utilize that themselves, and they want all of these leases canceled and to have their flocks increased so that they can go over there and use that for their summer or winter range.

Senator FRAZIER. How do you Navajos get along with the Utes? Mr. CHISCHILEGE. We get along pretty good up on this end. We get along pretty good up to the time that a new administration changed there at the agency. The Navajos and Utes get along pretty good, but it looks now like the Utes have been instructed so that there is a little bit of feeling. The Utes want to keep the Navajos away across the Manchon Creek away from where the Navajos always watered their sheep.

Senator FRAZIER. In other words, you think the superintendent now is looking after the Utes up there instead of the Navajos; is that it?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. As Indian agent he ought to look out for both ends.

Senator FRAZIER. But he is the Ute Indian agent.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. What I am getting at, it ought to be settled some way so that there is no ill feeling between the two tribes. We do not want any ill feeling between the two tribes.

Senator FRAZIER. I think that is right, but you people must respect the rights of the Ute Indians just as they must respect your rights. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Do you use the same language?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. No; we use a different language.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. You can not understand each other?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. People that live along with the Utes, they understand each other.

Senator WHEELER. What some of you young men ought to do is to go up there and marry some of those Ute girls, and then you would get some land up there.

Senator FRAZIER. There have been some intermarriages?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes; not very much, though.

Senator WHEELER. What is the matter with you young fellows down here, that you do not marry some of the Ute girls?

Senator FRAZIER. This Piute strip you speak of is occupied by the Navajos now, is it?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir; it is occupied by the Navajos now.

Senator FRAZIER. Having that land set aside for the Navajos would not give you any additional land to what you are occupying would it?

now,

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. It would give us

Senator FRAZIER. It would give you title to it?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. But you are occupying it now?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. But we can not go beyond some of those trading posts that are in the strip there, because those trading posts in there, the traders there kind of object to having the Indians go further on beyond their trading posts.

Senator FRAZIER. Why do they object to that?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. I do not know. They say this belongs to them, and keep the Indians back.

Senator FRAZIER. Have these traders got sheep of their own?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. I understand they have flocks of their own in the strip.

Senator FRAZIER. Any other statement you want to make to the committee?

Senator BRATTON. What about these scrub goats; why do you not reduce the number?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. The scrub goats the people use for milk, and they save the sheep and use it for mutton.

Also, I want to say some of the reimbursable charges, where it is used mostly by the public, ought to be canceled. That is being taken up by the council and I believe it is right. The public uses most of the things that are charged against the tribe, and that ought to be canceled by Congress.

Senator FRAZIER. You heard the commissioner's statement in regard to that this morning. At the last session some of these reimbursable debts had been canceled along that line, and they expect to cancel more of them; that is, for roads and bridges used by the general public. I think you are right about that.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. And about the beneficial welfare of my people. Why, I usually take it up with the agent, either here or the southern jurisdiction or western, wherever they are. We always take up with them, and it is not necessary to bring up everything here.

Senator WHEELER. Why do you not try to get your people to get rid of those goats they have and replace them with good sheep, because they can make a much better living with good sheep than they can with a lot of scrub goats which they now have?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Lately the Government introduced Angora bucks and that is improving up the goats. The Angoras, they use for shearing and use the wool or whatever you call it, the mohair. In that way they are getting rid of some of the scrub goats.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you think they would rather have sheep than goats?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. I would rather have sheep myself, but some of my people already have both, use it for mutton and use it for milk. I only have probably about 15 goats in my herd.

Senator FRAZIER. How much of a herd of sheep have you?
Mr. CHISCHILEGE. About 700.

Senator FRAZIER. Something was said about the so-called wild horses. Have you made any estimate or has your council made any estimate as to the number of wild horses that are not being used by the Indians at all?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. What we call the wild horses, one that runs when he sees you

Senator FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. We have not many of that kind. They are mostly all wiped out and what ponies we have now they are tame ponies, although they are called bronchos, but I believe there are not very many horses like there used to be years ago when the plant was running at Gallup. These Indians all sold most of the horses to this plant in Gallup.

Senator FRAZIER. How many wild horses would you think there are now a thousand or more?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. I believe it is more than a thousand; possibly right about 4,000.

Senator WHEELER. Why do you not cooperate with the stockman and see if you can not get him busy and get him out there and get rid of some of these 4,000 wild horses. It would help your range and help your sheep. Do many of the Indians here have a poor grade of sheep? I mean old sheep without teeth, and so forth?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Starting from the west end of the reservation, say about Sweet Water, east toward the east line of the reservation most of the sheep are what we call improved, improved by breeding up with Romneys, but beyond that probably less than half are improved. I believe the agent is trying his best to improve up the herd at the western end of the reservation.

Senator FRAZIER. These Government farmers that are here with you get right out among the Indians and talk to them about their herds, what kind of sheep they could have, and so forth.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Mr. Jensen, our stockman for a number of years, goes out among the Indians and he does his best, I suppose, but I never was along with him. The way the sheep are breeding up, I should judge he is doing his work all right.

Senator FRAZIER. He advises the Indians to sell the old sheep, get rid of them before they lose all of their teeth and are not any good and liable to die on their hands?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Do you have chapters here?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. We do not hardly call them chapters; we call them livestock improvement associations, farmers' associations. Senator WHEELER. How many of the Indians belong to those associations?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. We usually have a president, a vice president, and secretary. I think there are 13 organizations throughout the northern part of the reservation under this jurisdiction.

Senator FRAZIER. How many Indians attend each one of these organizations or belong to them? Do you have a regular membership or does anyone come that wants to?

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. The association is represented by the community. For instance, here, this community along the canal here, is represented by three, and the people living around here come together.