whatever. Freight can always be gotten down there what you might say is packet freight. Our trade board does not distinctly have a man connected with it for the American betterment; they are more interested in other countries. A boat once a month would be all right to send down there, because, if it had 150 passengers, they could get 5,000 tons of freight for Hamburg or Bremen. We only have two boats running as a passenger line; that is Richard Meyer & Co., who has the line under the name of the United States Shipping Board. Mr. DAVIS. Where do those boats operate-to what European countries? Mr. MEYER. They go to Bremen and Hamburg. Mr. DAVIS. And do not go to Great Britain at all? Mr. MEYER. No; they go exclusively to Bremen and Hamburg. Mr. DAVIS. And there is no freight boat running from New Orleans to Great Britain or France? Mr. MEYER. Except boats which are chartered to certain agents, Trosdal, Plant & La Fonta; Lykes Bros., and such other Shipping Board boats. Mr. DAVIS. How often do the boats sail from New Orleans to Hamburg and Bremen? Mr. MEYER. Well, we have some run from Lykes Bros., and Meyer-I guess there are about three of them-they run weekly; freight boats exclusively. They take passengers, if they can get them; they take one or two passengers, or sometimes more or less. Mr. DAVIS. But, as I understand, these boats, as a rule, are small, and they are strictly cargo boats? Mr. MEYER. All cargo. Mr. DAVIS. And carry bulk cargo-cotton and things of that kind? Mr. MEYER. Anything of that kind. Mr. DAVIS. As I understand, what you mean by saying there is a good opportunity for a combination passenger and cargo vessel Mr. MEYER. Passenger and cargo together. Mr. DAVIS (continuing). Is that they could pick up 5,000 tons of packet cargo. Mr. MEYER. Yes, sir. I could get the cargo all right if they had a boat, combined freight and passenger. There would be no trouble at all. I have belonged there 28 years to the Association of Commerce, and I can pretty near say I know every person in town of any consequence. Mr. LINEBERGER. You have lots of connections on the outside, too, I suppose? Mr. MEYER. Oh, yes; every place. Mr. DAVIS. This association of commerce you speak of. Are they made up of Americans? Mr. MEYER. Oh, yes; lots of Americans. Of course, anybody who has $25 can join them. Mr. DAVIS. It is strictly a commercial organization? But Mr. MEYER. Strictly a commercial organization. They do good, though, for the town, I will say that-for the business men. there are so many people who would ship goods to Europe; say, for instance, who ship cotton direct, and others ship grain. You know the grain, naturally, comes from Iowa, Nebraska, and all those places through there, and we have the best facilities, the finest elevators of any place in the country. Of course, Galveston is trying its utmost to do so. There is no doubt a line running from New York and Galveston, of the Shipping Board, which would be a combinationn boat of passengers and freight, that is what should be done. Mr. DAVIS. I want to ask you if, in your opinion, and from your experience and observation, it would be practicable to put on a line of these passenger and cargo steamers carrying packet freight, say to stop in Galveston, Houston, and new Orleans Mr. MEYER. And go to other places; yes. Mr. DAVIS (continuing). And maybe Mobile, or Tampa, and then go on? Mr. MEYER. They could do that. Mr. DAVIS. In other words, do a coast wise together with the foreign service? Mr. MEYER. The Dutch line does that, the Rotterdam line. They go right along and pick up freight and go out and make a big success of it. There is not a time when they haven't got a lot of passengers booked ahead, which will go on a certain day, for instance, on the 1st or the 15th-say twice a month. Mr. DAVIS. And they are going with full cargoes, are they? Mr. MEYER. They are always going with full cargoes and always bringing sufficient back; there is something more or less, even though some of them bring back a couple thousand tons of paper from there; others bring iron, and one thing and another, for American industry, and there is a good deal of freight from New Orleans out to foreign countries. Mr. DAVIS. Now, do these strictly cargo vessels, by operating from New Orleans, go with full cargoes? Mr. MEYER. Mostly with full cargo; they seldom don't. And they can pick up cargo from Galveston and Mobile and they have full cargoes always. Mr. DAVIS. They always have a full cargo before they leave for Europe? Mr. MEYER. Yes. They make a regular specialty, the Dutch steamers coming in there-the Dutch steamers just change off; they take people to Rotterdam and from Rotterdam they send them to Europe, and so on. The Hamburg-American Line admitted they did that. And I think if somebody would go ahead of them there would be an advantage. The matter is simply this: The people imagine that on account, which they preach to them, "Now, if you go on an American boat, you can not get a drink of nothing but water there." And there comes that question, "And if you go on an English boat, after you get out from New York, why they sell right on the boat at the bar." Mr. BANKHEAD. Sell what? Mr. MEYER. Go right up in front of the bar outside of the 3-mile limit, where everything is free and open. That is a great drawback, to a certain extent. Mr. DAVIS. How many tickets do you sell a month or a quarter for the United States Lines? Mr. MEYER. Oh, I suppose last year probably about 140 only of various kinds. The best one I sold was to Mr. Gus Baldwin, of the hardware store of Gus Baldwin & Co. He took a trip on the 4th of July on the Leviathan, and his round trip amounted to $2,200. Mr. DAVIS. Now, do most of those people that you sell these tickets to in New Orleans, to leave New York on the United States Lines, go by rail from New Orleans to New York or do they go round by water, as a rule? Mr. MEYER. That just depends upon whichever the choice is of the people. If you go on a boat, it costs you $60 first class, $48 second, and so on. The most of the fares, though, you may say, is second-class tickets on all the boats. A second-class ticket costs about $135 or $140 from New York to Europe and $103.50 for third class. That is what we call a one-cabin class, which the Hamburg-American Line has, and $200 for first class, and so on. It depends upon the room. Mr. DAVIS. What is the railroad fare from New Orleans to New York? Mr. MEYER. $40.75. Mr. DAVIS. That is the straight fare? Mr. MEYER. That is straight, without sleeper. But people save the eating and the sleeping car, and that amounts to $12.25, which, in fact, would cost them in eating and everything about $20. The trip from Chicago to New Orleans is worth about $70 on the rail. Mr. DAVIS. If a combination passenger and freight line of the Shipping Board was put on at New Orleans for the Gulf ports down there, should they be cabin ships or should they be first, second, and third class? Mr. MEYER. Well, I think second and third would be enough, because everybody would be satisfied with that. Mr. DAVIS. Most of them who sail from down there want either second or third class? Mr. MEYER. Second or third class. Mr. DAVIS. Now, you know the United States Lines have some ships that have neither first, second, or third class as such, but where everybody is on the same basis, or what are known as cabin ships. Mr. MEYER. Cabin ships. They would be all right too; one of them would be perfectly sufficient. Mr. DAVIS. You know the reason they have adopted that policy is that, unlike Europeans the average American does not want to go anywhere as second or third class. He is willing to go on any sort of boat, most, if everybody else is on the same footing. Mr. MEYER. That is right. Mr. DAVIS. But he does not want to be second or third class. Mr. MEYER. Some of them, of course; but the majority of them, if they had a boat like that, one class, I think it would also pay from down there combined with freight. Mr. DAVIS. And if it was first, second, or third class, there would not be any necessity for many first-class cabins? Mr. MEYER. No. Second and third would be sufficient for any one. Mr. DAVIS. You have been connected with the Shipping Board now, for how many years, in all capacities? Mr. MEYER. Oh, I guess about six or seven years. Mr. DAVIS. Six or seven years? Mr. MEYER. Yes. Mr. DAVIS. During that time, or at least during a portion of that time, it was your special duty to act as observer for the Shipping Board as to the ships and the conditions and things of that kind, was it? Mr. MEYER. I always have taken the most interest for American interests, because I have been with the Government since 1906. Mr. DAVIS. Now, in this letter that was written me by your friend, Captain Miller, he stated that you could tell us how the Shipping Board could save a thousand dollars a day there at New Orleans, alone. Mr. MEYER. Well, I won't say $1,000. It might be some days more and some days less; that is a matter, of course, some of these chief engineers and captains, they come to me and they say, "My, don't you think it's an outrage the way our American money is squandered?" Mr. DAVIS. Now, this committee would like to have you go into detail on that one matter, of what facts you can give us and what recommendations you can make looking to a saving of Government money there. Mr. MEYER. The first matter, a man came to me, a chief engineer, and the first mate, stating that their boat should be scraped. They asked whoever had charge of that, I do not know who, of the Shipping Board, "if you give me 8 or 10 men, I can get that done while the boat is here, in 15 days." Now, I know these people, these sailors; you know what they are getting, Mr. Lineberger-about $65 or $70, and so on. Mr. DAVIS. What boat was that? Mr. MEYER. The Cardona, which belongs to Trosdal, Plant & La Fonta. The CHAIRMAN. Belongs to what? Mr. MEYER. In charge of Trosdal, Plant & La Fonta. The first mate quit. He said, "look at this:" he says, "I just want to show you an outrage they want to work." The Shipping Board took it in hand and that boat cost the Shipping Board between $10,000 and $11,000 to scrape; whereas the first mate told me if they had given him 8 or 10 men, that they would have gotten $5 a day, and you can figure out in 20 days what they would have got it done for. That is one point I know positively. Mr. DAVIS. He told you he could take 8 or 10 men and do the scraping in 10 or 15 days? Mr. MEYER. Yes. And they sometimes say, "Meyer, don't you think it is a shame how money is squandered that way?" Take another point: Of course, as to the employment office, I know it is overdone sometimes, because, of course, Uncle Sam has lots of money and he can stand the racket; that is about the size of it, and everybody says that. Then in regard to food: You allow 65 cents a day for food. Previous to this the stewards used to go into the butcher or ship chandler and order so much. On the smallest boat that goes out, about 45 days, there is about 3,000 pounds of fresh meat put on you might say about $5,000 of provisions; everything. The steward goes to the butcher and orders all the goods, and I know positively half the Shipping Board men, from the port steward to the port captain, they never have to pay anything to the butcher for what is furnished the boat; they just go and say, "Give me this." I think a man can see that. I am wide awake to that, in regard to what some stewards have been getting by furnishing the boats. For instance, there is a boat, the Patrick Henry. She makes a year's trip. When the port steward is through with ordering his stuff he says, "Here is an order; go get this suit of clothes; you go to Gutchell's clothing store." That has been done right along. Mr. DAVIS. What was that ship you mentioned just then? Mr. DAVIS. No; the other one. Mr. MEYER. The Patrick Henry. believe. She makes a year's trip, I Mr. DAVIS. Now, who was the port steward? Mr. MEYER. I don't know. I didn't take particular notice of it; only it was mentioned to me. Mr. DAVIS. Who was the port steward at that time? Mr. MEYER. I don't know who was the port steward at that time. That is only a small fraction; such things always happen. Mr. DAVIS. When was that, Captain? Mr. MEYER. I guess that is about a year ago. Mr. DAVIS. Now, do you know of any more specific instances where gratuities of that kind were paid? Mr. MEYER. Well, we have up there, I suppose, about 30 or 40 boats laid up. Mr. DAVIS. In the laid-up fleet there? Mr. MEYER. In the laid-up fleet up at Meyer Point. Mr. BANKHEAD. Government boats? Mr. MEYER. Government boats; mostly twelve and ten thousand tons-fine boats, going to waste; that is about the size of it. Now, the folks down there, whoever is in charge, he puts on a captain on some of the boats, your head man and steward, and three or four or five boats together. They feed on one boat, and the Government furnishes the supplies for them. Now, the engineer on that boat he gets about $10.40 a day, the chief engineer. Mr. LINEBERGER. How many boats does he take care of? Mr. MEYER. Oh, that is just it; how many has he got? How many could he take care of? There is the question, Mr. Lineberger. Mr. LINEBERGER. How many boats does he take care of? Mr. MEYER. He should take care of about eight, laying in a row. Mr. LINEBERGER. How many does he take care of? Mr. MEYER. Sometimes he won't take care of more than three or four or five. Mr. LINEBERGER. Then he is only busy about half his time; is that it? Mr. MEYER. He has an assistant. Mr. DAVIS. Does he properly take care of that many? Mr. MEYER. How is that? Mr. DAVIS. Does he properly take care of that many? Mr. MEYER. That is to be seen. He has good times; they lay 12 miles up from New Orleans, and can do as they please: there is nobody goes to tell them; they haven't got any time. They take a |