and for night they have an extra engineer, a night engineer, you

know.

Mr. DAVIS. You mean each one of the managing operators has his own port organization?

Mr. MEYER. Has his own port organization. They hire their own people.

Mr. DAVIS. And then the Shipping Board Emergency Fleet Corporation had its organization, say, of 20 people?

Mr. MEYER. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. And the money for all of it coming out of the Government?

Mr. MEYER. Why, of course.

Mr. DAVIS. Well, what did this man Santa Cruz do to make a salary of $9,000 there; what did he do?

Mr. MEYER. That I can not tell myself. I know he had charge of all that office there, but what he ever done, I don't know. I don't know why the Government let him go; he is gone now, and they have another man in his place, I understand.

Mr. DAVIS. Do you know where he went to?

Mr. MEYER. I couldn't say. His home is Pascagoula, Miss.

Mr. LINEBERGER. You think he at least showed up in time to sign the pay roll each month, do you not?

Mr. MEYER. That is about it. Well, that is a hard job, anyway, you know.

Mr. DAVIS. How about the stevedoring situation at New Orleans? Did each managing operator arrange for his own stevedoring, or did this organization Santa Cruz was at the head of look after that?

Mr. MEYER. Well, of late, they had a strike out there a short time ago, and the Shipping Board naturally had a force of what you may call strikebreakers there, and which they are doing, I guess, up to the present time. The stevedores and their crews made an offer to the Shipping Board to be replaced, but what they have done this last week, I could not say. I left last week and don't know anything about it. Each party has their own stevedores, from each ship; he can hire his own stevedores the way he wants to.

Mr. DAVIS. How about the price that the Shipping Board operators pay for stevedoring, as compared to the price paid by private lines for stevedoring?

Mr. MEYER. I believe the Shipping Board pays more than private lines, because they pay the union wages.

Mr. DAVIS. You mean they pay union wages and the private lines do not?

Mr. MEYER. They don't.

Mr. DAVIS. What class of laborers are employed as stevedores there-colored laborers?

Mr. MEYER. Mixed.

Mr. DAVIS. Mixed laborers?

Mr. MEYER. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. Are part of them in the union and part of them not in the union?

Mr. MEYER. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. And the private lines employ stevedores whichever way they can, as cheap as they can get it?

Mr. MEYER. Wherever they get it cheapest. They even have to carry them in wagons from the wharf and bring them back in the morning. At one time they had a boat laying there, where they brought 500 at a time, right on board on the steamer laying there, which were fed there for a while.

Mr. DAVIS. Now have you any other reason to say that the Shipping Board really pays more for their stevedoring work than the private lines do?

Mr. MEYER. I won't say that particularly; but you must always remember when it comes to that point, the private men will drive and are more successful in getting more work out of people than what the Shipping Board will do.

Mr. DAVIS. In other words, whenever a private line is having stevedoring done, there is some representative of that private line on the job supervising and looking after it to see that they get good service; is that it?

Mr. MEYER. Well, that is what should be done, yes.

Mr. DAVIS. Is that what is generally done in the case of private lines?

Mr. MEYER. Oh, yes; they do that right enough.

Mr. DAVIS. Is that your observation that that is done or is not done in the case of the Shipping Board lines?

Mr. MEYER. Well, I won't say that. There is a little bit of padding in anything that is done under the Shipping Board system down there, because there is no head man over it-that I must say. There is something lacking. As far as contracts is concerned, if you will allow me to mention, Mr. Lineberger, that is a very funny thing.

Mr. DAVIS. Now before we leave that stevedoring proposition, who are the Shipping Board operators operating out of New Orleans? Lykes Bros. Steamship Co. is one of them?

Mr. MEYER. Yes, and the other is Trosdal, Plant & La Fonta. Mr. DAVIS. Now do you know the Southern Stevedoring Co., Inc., at New Orleans?

Mr. MEYER. I don't know the name.

Mr. DAVIS. Is that the one that does the stevedoring for Lykes Bros.?

Mr. MEYER. I suppose so.

Mr. DAVIS. In this connection, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, you will recall the other day I asked the Shipping Board to furnish us with a list of the subsidiary companies of the Shipping Board operators, and here is the report that has come in, properly certified to, and, among others, they give the Lykes Bros. Steamship Co., Inc.; subsidiaries, Southern Stevedoring Co., Inc., of Galveston; Southern Stevedoring Co., Inc., of New Orleans. I think this ought to be inserted in the record, because it shows that most of them have subsidiary companies, according to their own admission, because this is said:

With the exception of the Barber Steamship lines, this information was procured from the various managing agents, as a result of an inquiry addressed to them under date of December 14, 1923, in compliance with instructions of the United States Shipping Board.

Now what is the other line operating out of New Orleans-Shipping Board line?

Mr. MEYER. Oh, there are several of them. There is A. K. Miller; there is Trosdal, Plant & La Fonta; the Mississippi Transportation Co.; Texas-all of them; I guess we have about 30 of them out of there.

Mr. DAVIS. I am talking about the United States Shipping Board lines operating out of New Orleans.

Mr. MEYER. United States Shipping Board, under that name? Mr. DAVIS. No. In other words, what other managing operators of Shipping Board vessels are operating out of New Orleans, except the ones which you just referred to, like Lykes Bros.?

Mr. MEYER. Lykes Bros.

Mr. DAVIS. Who else?

Mr. MEYER. Oh, lots of them. I could not mention all of them; I know them all.

Mr. DAVIS. I understand there are plenty of lines, but I only want to inquire about the lines that are operating Shipping Board vessels. Mr. MEYER. I guess most every line has Shipping Board vessels, more or less, there. Trosdal, Plant & La Fonta, that has the Shipping Board vessel; the Mississippi Transportation Co.; and then there is the Tampa Inter-Ocean, that has Shipping Board vessels. The Tampa Inter-Ocean has the largest vessels operating, I guess, between 10,000 and 17,000 tons-the largest one there is.

Mr. DAVIS. Some of them are operating under bare-boat charter contracts, are they not?

Mr. MEYER. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. What I want to get at is only those who are operating under MO-4 agreements, on the commission basis.

Mr. MEYER. They all do that, I guess; most all of them.

Mr. DAVIS. Did you say W. A. Blake & Co. was one of them?

Mr. MEYER. Trosdel, Plant & La Fonta I said.

Mr. DAVIS. Trosdal, Plant & La Fonta?

Mr. MEYER. Yes; that is right.

Mr. DAVIS. Now, one of their subsidiary companies is the Plant Line Stevedoring Co. (Inc.)?

Mr. MEYER. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. Do you know about them?

Mr. MEYER. Yes; I know them by name; that is all.

Mr. BANKHEAD. With reference to this allowance, Captain, of 65 cents per day per man for subsistence, did I understand you to say that most of these boats when they come in were tied up some distance up or down the river, or a good many of them tied up right there within the city limits?

Mr. MEYER. Well, this is a coming port. They may have to lay up a couple of boats until they get berths, and then they have the sailors stay on board; but if they have an opportunity, whenever they have the time off, you know, they go ashore.

Mr. BANKHEAD. Now, Captain, I want to be entirely fair relative to that subsistence allowance.

Mr. MEYER. Certainly.

Mr. BANKHEAD. Do you think if that 65 cents were properly used for each man and the food prepared in wholesome ways and quan

tity that those sailors would stay there on the ships and eat, or would they prefer to eat off in port some place?

Mr. MEYER. I believe they would be back on the ship. The captains go off the ship, you know; the captains and chief engineers don't go down on the boat any more, except they are required to be there; otherwise they are off of the ship.

Mr. BANKHEAD. You believe the sailors would go back to their ships under the circumstances I have named because, as a matter of fact, it would be a substantial saving to them out of their wages? Mr. MEYER. I know they would.

Mr. BANKHEAD. While the ship was tied up?

Mr. MEYER. Yes; I would myself.

Mr. BANKHEAD. These second and third-class passenger boats that you have suggested might be operated. Do you think the better class of passengers going abroad would use those boats going from New Orleans to Europe, for instance?

Mr. MEYER. They would, because it would be a saving to them. Mr. BANKHEAD. Do they give pretty good accommodations on these second and third-class rates?

Mr. MEYER. Yes; indeed. I have been on several of them here in New York and have seen some of them come in and they give equally as good food as any foreign boat, and better-wholesome food.

Mr. BANKHEAD. You say the officials have declined to furnish you any quarters, or any assistants?

Mr. MEYER. None whatever.

Mr. BANKHEAD. Did you ever make application to be furnished an office with this other force of 19 or 20 people?

Mr. MEYER. I did. They told me they didn't have room enough. The Government always says, "Let us save as much as we can. Mr. McNary told me, when I left him- says, "Mr. McNary, if you want to make a success of the Shipping Board, you let me have offices there." He says, "We can not afford it; the Shipping Board is holding us down.""

Mr. BANKHEAD. How far is your residence located from the center of the city?

Mr. MEYER. About 20 minutes ride. I am down town every day. Mr. BANKHEAD. But your office is not down town?

Mr. MEYER. No.

Mr. BANKHEAD. It is several miles away from the business part of the city?

Mr. MEYER. Yes.

Mr. BANKHEAD. In other words, if a prospective passenger were to inquire about passenger transportation abroad, or to New York or anywhere else, they would have to call up your residence? Mr. MEYER. That is what they would have to do.

Mr. BANKHEAD. You have no advertisements, have you; you are allowed no advertising expenses?

Mr. MEYER. Oh, yes: I have my own individual card, "Ernest W. Mever, United States Lines, Captain."

Mr. BANKHEAD. Now, Captain, is it your judgment that is an adequate arrangement in a great port like New Orleans, and where you are the only representative of the passenger traffic?

Mr. MEYER. The only one; that is right.

Mr. BANKHEAD. In your opinion, is that an adequate allowance for the solicitation of passenger business?

Mr. MEYER. That is what I came to New York for.

Mr. BANKHEAD. That is not what I asked. I asked is that a proper allowance for the solicitation of passengers? Should not you have more?

Mr. MEYER. Sure. I could do a big business if I had an office right in the residence center. A residence won't cost so much. If I have a place where I put a picture of the Leviathan, and say, "This boat goes on such and such a day." I have to go to work and carry the plans down, and say, "Here is what room you have, 269," or so and so, located in this place or that place.

Mr. BANKHEAD. In other words, it is more like a peddling operation that a real, dignified service?

Mr. MEYER. It is a peddling operation.

Mr. BANKHEAD. I have been to New Orleans. If there were a group of passengers seeking transportation, is not the first thing they would do would be to go to the Grunwald Hotel, or the St. Charles, naturally, to look up facilities for securing passenger accommodations?

Mr. MEYER. Certainly.

Mr. BANKHEAD. And in these centers where tourists and people congregate, these other ship lines have passenger offices?

Mr. MEYER. They are right in the St. Charles Hotel, or the Grunwald, where everybody goes. I say, "Only give me a place where people come in and pass," and I can get a place on Canal Street, a fine desk room, and so on, for $50 a month.

Mr. COOPER. For how much?

Mr. MEYER. For $50 a month. I could get a desk room on Canal Street there, with some real estate men. The real estate man only has a desk, and I could go there and display even one boat and say, "United States Lines," and draw attention. They say ing doing," that you folks are holding back.

66

No; noth

Mr. BANKHEAD. Did you ever take that up with Mr. Rossbottom? Mr. MEYER. No, I didn't. Mr. McNary is the only man I applied to, because he has charge of Mr. Walton. I suppose you know Mr. McNary, in New York?

Mr. BANKHEAD. Captain, under those circumstances, would it not be profitable for you, on a commission, to do a thing of that sort?

Mr. MEYER. No. I returned my tickets entirely, and they told me I could send them back to Mr. Walton, in New York, who has charge of the distributing agency.

Mr. BANKHEAD. You did surrender all your tickets?

Mr. MEYER. I surrendered all my tickets.

Mr. BANKHEAD. Did they send them back to you?

Mr. MEYER. They wanted to send them back.

Mr. BANKHEAD. You are not now, then, as a matter of fact, selling tickets on a commission?

Mr. MEYER. Not at present; no.

Mr. BANKHEAD. Is anyone in New Orleans?

Mr. MEYER. Only this man who has an office for the English and French lines, that has a big office there, and if anyone would say,