PARAGRAPH 225-CATTLE.

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; and the people have been having rioting in the market places there, have they not?

Mr. HALEY. They have been rioting here, too. There was a riot in New York.

TESTIMONY OF S. H. COWAN, OF FORT WORTH, TEX.

The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.

Mr. COWAN. In fear of the pains and penalties of perjury, Mr. Chairman, I wish to say that I am here to present certain data which I have gathered and had gathered by others, mainly from statistical data compiled by Government officials and others, which I can not exactly vouch for. I may make some arguments to which I would not be willing to swear, but I will endeavor to stick as nearly to the truth as I know it and according to my understanding. What I shall state, in view of the oath I have taken, is my knowledge and belief, largely belief, though I do think I have some knowledge with respect to the subject on which I am to address this committee.

I do not expect, Mr. Chairman and I say this for the purpose of the record, because most of the committeemen are absent to argue the subject of what the proper theory of a tariff ought to be. I do not expect to convince the judgment of a single member of this committee. I am perfectly aware of the situation; that through a series of happenings and I use that in a broad sense-we have come to the point where it seems to be the notion that in order to reduce the high cost of living Congress is justified in taking the tariff off of a large number of articles deemed to be necessities of life, with a view of meeting that proposed or actual demand, or both, that the cost of living should be reduced. I doubt if you are going to accomplish what is expected in that attempt. I am perfectly aware of the fact that it is generally supposed by the public that upon that theory the last election was held. I seriously doubt, had it not been for the circumstance of the division of the other party, which seems to be permanent, that if the Democratic Party had announced in favor of free trade, which it has never done, whether it could have succeeded. I do not believe that the country where I live, in Texas, I do not believe that the country in the great grain districts in the Missouri River Valley and the Mississippi River Valley would at any time subscribe, if they knew they were doing it, to the free importation of the products of other countries, in free competition with theirs. I do not believe that they ever thought that they were voting for anything of the sort.

I am a Democrat, Mr. Chairman; I believe in a tariff for revenue; I do not believe it means free trade in any article. I believe in the paramount provision of the Constitution for the public welfare. I believe in that paramount declaration that has been made, I think, by all political parties, "Equal rights to all and special privileges to none. Now, that is speaking of my personal beliefs.

I am here, Mr. Chairman, not personally representing myself. I have been able to adjust myself, so far as I am concerned personally, to every condition of life fixed by law, ordinances of cities, or otherwise. The people whom I represent are liberty-loving, tax-paying, army-making fighters of this country, the great cattle interests, who have conquered the western half of the United States. We are op

PARAGRAPH 225-CATTLE.

posed to, and I come here for the purpose of opposing, the placing of cattle and meat products on the free list, and it is upon that subject that I wish to address the committee. I understand that your time is short. I have many times been placed in the position where I had no time, as to which I had no complaint; I have been placed in the position where I could not give others time, as to which they probably ought not to have complained. But I want just enough time to present to this committee the outline of a brief which I have prepared on the subject. I worked in my room with a stenographer until 4 o'clock this morning-I mean with a gentleman whom I got from one of the departments-and I just want enough time to tell the committee about such points as I have made, not believing or supposing that this committee or the members of the committee can possibly have the time to read these briefs. I understand that.

The CHAIRMAN. The rule of the committee which, of course, the chairman must observe, has been to allow each man 10 minutes. However, witnesses have sometimes been cross-examined and have been given a longer time than that, because the cross-examination has not been taken out of their time. However, I recognize that you represent one of the great industries of the country and that there are a great many people whom you are representing in an official capacity, and if you will suggest the time you desire in order to make this argument, I will be glad to submit it to the committee and ascertain whether they approve of giving you a longer time than 10 minutes.

Mr. COWAN. That is very kind of you, and I will take as little time as I can. I was just about to reach the point of saying that the executive committee of the cattle raisers of Texas, which is the largest organization of cattle raisers in the world, not including Texas merely, but Oklahoma, southwestern Kansas, Colorado, New Mexico; and some in old Mexico, appointed a committee to come here. However, I knew they would not have enough time, and that it was no use for them to make a trip of 2,000 miles for that purpose. Among the members appointed on the committee was Mr. John Moore we call him Johnny Moore down in Texas; he is a Member of the House from Texas; and also Mr. McFadden, from Beaumont. Mr. McFadden is here, and I am sure Mr. Moore and Mr. McFadden would be willing to give me their time if they had an opportunity to do so. But I would like to have enough time, if the committee will be kind enough to give it to me, to state substantially what it is I am here to present. But I will take as little time as I can. The CHAIRMAN. Can you suggest what time you will desire?

Mr. CowAN. If you will give me 45 minutes, I will complete my statement within that time.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen of the committee, Mr. Cowan asks that he may have 45 minutes to submit the position of the beef and cattle men of the country. Is there any objection?

Mr. JAMES. I do not want to be put in the attitude of objecting, but have we given 45 minutes as yet to any industry?

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think we have given that directly, but several witnesses have taken more time.

Mr. JAMES. I only make this suggestion because the committee might establish a precedent here that might keep us in these hearings longer than we would have the time to give. Would 30 minutes answer?

PARAGRAPH 225-CATTLE.

Mr. COWAN. Well, I will do the best I can, Mr. James. Mr. JAMES. I do not propose to object, if you say you can not get through in a shorter time than 45 minutes.

Mr. CowAN. The point about it is that I appear for a great many people, and if they had come here, of course, they would have asked for time, but I advised them not to come, because I knew you would not be able to give them enough time.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, Mr. Cowan asks that he be permitted to proceed for 45 minutes. Is there objection? The Chair hears none. Mr. COWAN. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I will leave off my spectacles and undertake to state the facts to you gentlemen. I think I know this subject well enough to take up the time in making a statement to you, and possibly I will present it within 30 minutes. If I can, I shall be very glad to do so.

We are not advocating a protective tariff; we are not advocating a high protective tariff. We realize that there can be no import duty levied on any commodity shipped into this country. Possibly it is going a little far to say any commodity, but that ordinarily import duties can not be levied upon commodities without a resultant effect necessarily following. There is no use to say that there is not an incidental protection. I use the word "protection" there because I think it is an appropriate word. I do not use it as a political phrase or expression. When we come to make laws, and, of course, we are all attempting here and there to work for the best interests as we see the situation, looking, of course, at the situation with respect to our own districts, trying to satisfy the people, trying to get the most votes for ourselves and our parties; yet, when we come down to the business side of it, that is the side that we come from here. The man who presents his case like the fish man did this morning, like the lemon man presents it, like the rice man will present it, and like the onion man will present it, and, of course, I might enumerate a thousand others. Be he Democrat or Republican, that is the way he will look at the question when he is seeking to retain a tariff from the standpoint of benefit to his business, and there is no use to deny that. When a Congressman comes to enact a law, which will have the effect of benefiting or injuring a business, he would be false to his duty if he did not consider the effect of what he does. So I think I state a mere matter of ordinary logic when I say that he does not consider the effect of a tariff system of laws-and I speak of a tariff system and not of a particular article who does not consider the effect of the system he adopts and then go down from a system to individual items, fails to perform his duty as a representative of the people and as a patriot of the country. I doubt whether any man in Congress fails to perform his duty, and it is not my purpose to charge or insinuate that he does not.

In political meetings, when we make speeches and talk about this great proposition of free trade, in order to save the people from the high cost of living, of course, that is one thing, but when we come down to consider what is going to be the effect of a law on the statute books it is another thing.

Now, the Republicans and Democrats are not so far apart. I lay it down as a proposition, and it is contained in a resolution I am

PARAGRAPH 225-CATTLE.

going to submit to you in a moment, that no tariff, no law, no matter what it is, whether it is internal revenue or tariff-I might incidentally refer to the oleomargarine prohibition law-no law has a right to enable any business or any person or any one class of people in this country by virtue of that law to maintain an organization or secure a monopoly, or by virtue of that law to secure an undue profit. And yet no law should be enacted which will take away the fair opportunity to make a reasonable profit by the industries of this country. Upon that common ground, I am sure, the Democrats and Republicans could get together if they were willing to do it, and I think that everybody has just about softened up to that point now.

I do not represent a class. I am representing here the American National Live Stock Association, which is an organization composed of State organizations of live stock producers, the local cattle organizations in every State, I believe if not, then in nearly every State, and as I have been sworn I must be very cautious-west of the Mississippi River to the Pacific coast, and from the Canadian line to the Gulf and to the Rio Grande. It is not a class.

I have just made a trip from Phoenix, Ariz., here on the Santa Fe Railroad. In Phoenix I attended the annual convention of the Live Stock Association, and there were men there from every State west of the Missouri River and some from cast of it, representative men, delegates from their respective organizations. I have been attorney for the Cattle Raisers Association of Texas many years, and it is one of the prominent members of the American Live Stock Association. We have given consideration to this subject. We are partly Democrats, we are partly Republicans. We have hidden that away entirely and undertaken to be sensible about it, and we have said that all we ask is a fair preference in the markets of this country for what we produce, and we think we are entitled to that. You can call it what you please.

Mr. JAMES. Does that apply to cotton?

Mr. CowAN. Absolutely.

Mr. JAMES. Texas produces a third of the cotton in the United States.

Mr. CowAN. Certainly; it has a monopoly of the cotton business. Mr. JAMES. It sells that cotton in competition with the world? Mr. COWAN. Certainly; and just the moment, Mr. James, that Egypt, India, or any other country begins to produce cotton that competes the Texas people will be in favor of a tariff on Texas cotton. There is no doubt of it.

Mr. JAMES. Don't they now compete with it in Liverpool?
Mr. CowAN. No; there is practically no competition.

Mr. JAMES. We ship practically two-thirds of our cotton every year abroad?

Mr. COWAN. Certainly.

Mr. JAMES. We have to meet this competition?
Mr. CowAN. But they do not ship theirs here.

Mr. JAMES. I understand they do not

Mr. CowAN. Certainly; and what is the use of having a tariff law to try to help or injure some of the laws are enacted for that pur

78959-vol 3-13- -28

PARAGRAPH 225-CATTLE.

pose a business of that sort of which we have a monopoly and produce a surplus for the world? That would cut no figure.

Mr. JAMES. The grower of cotton and the grower of cattle in Texas are not on equal terms then?

Mr. CowAN. Why not?

Mr. JAMES. Because one has to sell his product in competition with the world and the other is protected.

Mr. COWAN. Just exactly what we did in 1906 when we exported 600,000 head of cattle to Liverpool and the equivalent of a million. head of cattle in fresh beef. We were producing a surplus. We were producing much cheaper than any other country. We were the only country which produced any considerable surplus at that time. Since then Argentina has taken our trade there, and yet it is proposed for Argentina to come in here and take our trade at home.

Mr. JAMES. Are the farmers of Texas in favor of untaxed farming implements?

Mr. CowAN. Undoubtedly, just as I am in favor of untaxed shoes, and hats, and coats, and pocket knives, and everthying, if you come down to the individual disposition.

Mr. JAMES. And untaxed sugar?

Mr. CowAN. No; I won't say that for sure about Texas, but the man who has to buy sugar wants to buy it generally as cheap as he can get it.

Mr. JAMES. And everybody in Texas that is not growing sugar wants free sugar?

Mr. CowAN. No; I won't say that. That does not follow. I doubt if the tax on sugar is increasing the price of sugar; personally, I seriously doubt it.

Mr. JAMES. Do you doubt that, in view of the fact that sugar is sold 100 per cent higher in New York than it is in Hamburg?

Mr. CowAN. I do not say that it is.

Mr. JAMES. I state that it is, and I state, in addition to that, that the cost of transportation from Hamburg to the United States, counting the insurance and the freight, is about one-tenth of a cent a pound.

Mr. FORDNEY. I want to state that the gentleman's information is absolutely wrong, and all statistics show it.

Mr. COWAN. I am under oath. I will let you gentlemen talk that

out.

Mr. FORDNEY. The consumer in Hamburg pays more for granulated sugar than the consumer in the United States does.

Mr. JAMES. I am only stating what the Hardwick committee brought forth from men under oath. Those are the facts.

Mr. COWAN. We have drifted away from the subject I was talking on. I am talking on the cattle business. But, going back to the sugar business for a moment, when I was a boy, right after the war, I attended a little country store for my father. I have sold many a pound of brown sugar for 10 cents a pound.

Mr. FORDNEY. The testimony before the Hardwick committeeand I was a member of that committee is to the effect that a dollar will buy more granulated sugar in the United States than in any country in the world, England excepted, and only a fraction below in England what it is here.