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FEDERAL AID FOR EDUCATION

THURSDAY, APRIL 26, 1945

UNITED STATES SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,

Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 a. m., in the committee room of the Committee on Education and Labor, United States Capitol, Senator Dennis Chavez, presiding.

Present : Senators Chavez, Smith, Donnell, Morse, Johnston, and Fulbright.

Senator CHAVEZ. The committee will come to order.

Miss Borchardt was on the stand yesterday when we concluded and we will proceed with your examination this morning, Miss Borchardt.

I believe, Senator Donnell, you indicated you would like to crossexamine the witness.

Senator DONNELL. Yes, sir.

STATEMENT OF SELMA M. BORCHARDT, VICE PRESIDENT, AMERI

CAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS—Resumed

Senator DONNELL, Miss Borchardt, you provided us yesterday with this book, containing the report of the executive council of the American Federation of Labor to the convention held in New Orleans in November 1944; is that correct?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct.

Senator DONNELL. I observe from the signatures to this report that the executive council includes the president, that is, William Green at this time, certain vice presidents, of whom Mr. Matthew Woll, who testified before us, is one, and the secretary-treasurer of the American Federation of Labor.

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct.

Senator DONNELL. Among the subjects that were considered in this report, which I may add is obviously a very comprehensive one, containing some 217 pages, is the subject of education which consumes the pages from 117 to 127 or thereabouts and possibly a little more than that.

Miss BORCHARDT. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. And among the recommendations contained in this report of the New Orleans convention is the following:

We recommend that the standing committee on education of the American Federation of Labor have prepared a bill to provide a permanent system of Federal aid for education.

Senate bill 717, as I understand it, is the bill which has accordingly been prepared.

Miss BORCHARDT. That is right.

Senator DONNELL. The report states, on page 122, that certain principles are to be written into the bill and it reads:

The following principles are to be written into the billand the first mentioned of these principles is, and I quote: 1. The sums are to be allocated among the States on a basis of relative need. Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct.

Senator DONNELL. Section 202 under title II of the bill, on page 13, begins with this language:

It shall be the duty of the National Board to determine the relative need for funds authorized under this title and to allocate the funds among the several States in accordance with their findings.

That is correct, is it not?
Miss BORCHARDT. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. The $300,000,000 that are authorized under title II to be appropriated annually is to be allocated on the basis of relative need and also in accordance with the report of the New Orleans convention, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. We believe so.
Senator DONNELL. That is your best judgment ?
Miss BORCHARDT. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Title III, section 303, of S. 717 authorizes an annual appropriation of $100,000,000 and 'title IV of this bill authorizes an annual appropriation of $150,000,000; is that correct?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct.

Senator DONNELL. As I recall your testimony yesterday, you stated, in substance, that title III and title IV of S. 717 combine the needs of the State and of the child.

Miss BORCHIARDT. No, Senator; not title II. I do not believe I did. If I did, I was in error.

Senator DONNELL. Will you please tell us what you either testified to or meant to testify to and I may not have quoted you exactly correctly; and, as I do not take shorthand, I may have gotten it down incorrectly.

Miss BORCHARDT. The funds appropriated under title II are allocated entirely on the basis of the relative need of the States.

Senator DONNELL. Title III?
Miss BORCHARDT. Title II.
Senator DONNELL. Yes.

Miss BORCHARDT. They are allocated entirely on the basis of the relative needs of the States. Title III, because of the nature of this section, recognizes the individual needs of the child as well as the needs of the State because-let me diverge for a moment.

The needs of the child are determined, in part, by the child's family condition, economically speaking, and we are providing in this act for transportation, health services, and such other facilities which necessarily must be determined by the economic capacity of the child's parents and therefore the need as set forth in title III is measured, both in terms of the need of the child and the needs of the State; one-half of that fund on a basis of the relative need of the State and one-half by population, for there is a fairly close ratio between the number of low-income families and population of the State, regard

less of the wealth of the State itself. Please consider this other factor also, because the clause cannot well be taken out of the context:

The fact that the national board will establish certain standards for measuring the relative need of the person within the State.

Senator DONNELL. The point to which I direct your attention in this connection, Miss Borchardt, is that section 302, which applies to the $100,000,000 under title III, that is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. Yes, Senator. Senator DONNELL. Section 302 of title III says: The funds authorized to be appropriated under section 301 of this Act shall be allocated among the several States by the National Board as follows: Fifty per centum of such funds shall be allocated among the States on the basis of the total population of each State as estimated by the Bureau of the Census, and 50 per centum of such funds shall be allocated by the methods of allocation provided, and in accordance with the policy expressed, under section 202 of this Act.

That is correct, is it not?
Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct.

Senator DONNELL. The point I want to direct your attention to, and I do not want to argue this point with you, is that 50 percent of such funds of the $100,000,000 shall be allocated among the States on the basis of the total population of the State as estimated by the Bureau of the Census. I have put that correctly, have I not?

Miss BORCHARDT. You quoted it correctly but let me say-
Senator Donnell. I have quoted the language of the bill correctly?
Miss BORCHARDT. That is written into the bill.
Senator DONNELL. Yes.

Miss BERCHARDT. The point is, Senator, that one cannot take one section out of the bill from the context of the bill but one should take it in relation to those sections which give the National Board the discretionary power to fix the definition of relative need of the States within the terms fixed in the act itself—that is in relation to Treasury Department figures on wealth, income, capacity, et cetera, and for titles III and IV a definite standard of need of persons in a State must also be clearly and objectively stated. The bill, in fact, gives the National Board not only the discretionary power but the mandatory duty of setting up standards by which those personal needs are to be met and that is the point we have in mind.

Senator DONNELL. The point I direct your attention to, however, is to the fact that as to $50,000,000 of the money provided under title III each and every State of the Union is entitled to a share of said $50,000,000 based solely on the population of that State. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHIARDT. Yes; that is correct. The reason for that is, as the figures Dr. Reeves gave will show, there is intense poverty among the citizens of the rich States, among the individuals of those States and this provision is to meet the condition of poverty of individuals in a State, in a rich State as well as a poor State.

Senator DONNELL. The point to which I again direct your attention is that the State, as it comes up for its share of the $30,000,000, only has to show what its population is and does not have to show what its need is.

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Miss BORCHARDT. For one-half of the amount; yes, sir, for the reasons stated.

Senator DONNELL. As to $50,000,000 under title II, it is not neces. sary for any State to establish any need whatsover. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. The need is apparent in figures which must be obtained from the Treasury Department.

Senator DONNELL. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct, if the need is shown by the objective data furnished by the Treasury Department.

Senator CHAVEZ. May I interrupt right there?
Senator DONNELL. Yes.

Senator CHAVEZ. As I understand, the idea is that even in the rich States that might not, as a whole, be in need, they will find themselves in need as far as individuals are concerned.

Senator DONNELL. That may well be true.

Senator CHAVEZ. I think that is the point the witness is trying to make.

Senator DONNELL. Yes; but the point I am making is that each State, as it walks up for its share of the $50,000,000, has to show only one thing, and that is the number of people who live in it. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct, for getting funds for student aid. The individual student must show need and there are many poor students in rich States.

Senator Smith. May I ask this question? Section 301 does not seem to me to apply to individuals at all. Section 301 applies to expenditures for educational facilities and services, such as transportation for educational purposes, library facilities, textbooks, and other reading materials, visual aids, and so forth. That is the $100,000,000.

Title IV is the one that applies to needy students; so, if I may add a suggestion, the 50 percent goes to these States irrespective of the need of special students. It goes on the basis of population to do these things. That is right, is it not!

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct, in part, but I respectfully submit, sir, that the reason for that formula is that the need of the child in a rich State is considered, in considering the population of the State.

For example, the child from the poor family does not have those medical services which are to be furnished. The child from the poor family does not have the transportation money. The child from the poor family is handicapped in the purchase of textbooks whether he be in a public or nonpublic school. Tragically enough, even in our public schools, we in the labor movement have had a terrific fight to get free textbooks for children. Those are the factors we considered in relation to individual needs in preparing this bill.

Senator DONNELL. Miss Borchardt, referring to title IV, that is the title under which $150,000,000 is authorized to be appropriated annually.

Miss BORCHARDT. That is true, Senator. Senator DONNELL. Under section 402, the language is as follows: The funds authorized to be appropriated under section 401 of this Actthat is the $150,000,000 ?

poor

Miss BORCHARDT. That is right.

Senator DONNELL (reading): shall be allocated among the several States on the basis of the total number of persons in each of such States between the ages of 14 and 20, inclusive, as estimated by the Bureau of the Census.

That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct. You are reading the bill correctly, sir.

Senator DONNELL. In other words, in that case also, as it states, imagine them in a procession coming up for their share of the $150,000,000, and as each State comes up it is only necessary for them to produce a certificate of one fact, namely, the number of persons between the ages of 14 and 20. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct, Senator; but you fail to give consideration to the number of poor people in each rich State, in that procession of States, to which you refer. During the depression, and since then, too, the figures in all reports of any value show that the need of many individuals in many rich States is very great. Hence the State need only show its population to show need, for the figures showing need of individuals in the State are implicit in the record.

Senator DONNELL. Then as to this $200,000,000 under this bill, namely, $50,000,000 under title III and $150,000,000 under title IV, the only information which the State is required to show in order to get its prorata part is in the case of $50,000,000, what its total population is as estimated by the Bureau of the Census and as to the $150,000,000, the total number of persons in that State between the ages of 14 and 20 as estimated by the Bureau of the Census. That is true, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is true because for title IV and for part of title III the figures are clear as to the need of persons in the State. Those figures in the States show the need.

Senator DONNELL. Miss Borchardt, I want to express my realization of the work you have done undoubtedly in preparation of your testimony of yesterday.

Miss BORCHARDT. Thank you, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. You referred to the Ordinance of 1785 concerning the Northwest Territory, did you not!

Miss BORCHARDT. Yes, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. And you pointed out, as I recall your testimony, that under the provision of the ordinance of 1785, lot 16, or I should say section 16, in each township

Miss BORCHARDT (interposing). No. I beg your pardon, that is right, Senator. Senator DONNELL. Is that right? Miss BORCHARDT. Yes. I thought you were speaking of lot 29. Senator DONNELL. I am coming to that in a minute. That lot 16 was to go for schools and lot 29 for religion.

Miss BORCHARDT. That provision was in the ordinance of 1787 set up for the government of the Northwest Territory. The provision in article III referred to the lot 29 provision. That is article II of the ordinance of 1787.

Senator DONNELL. I am coming back to that in a minute.

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