We are still debating as to whether those should be temporary buildings or whether they should be permanent buildings. I cannot tell yet just what the answer will be.

Senator ELLENDER. Are you able to say whether or not these additional children come mostly from Virginia or from outside the State?

Mr. HALL. Thus far we know that at least two-thirds of this group come from Virginia.

Senator ELLENDER. How does that affect the places from whence they come? Doesn't it decrease the load there? Isn't the load being lessened?

Mr. HALL. Yes. I have found in the matter of State school funds, for example, that the matter just about balances itself, because there is a falling off in one county and an increase in another.

Do you follow what I mean?

Senator ELLENDER. I understand. If that is a fact, then why should the whole burden be upon these localities where they are now located?

Mr. HALL. These localities have reached their ultimate tax limit; and there are limitations of that sort, which make it impossible to meet the demand.

Senator ELLENDER. Doesn't all of these defense projects add new wealth there and more employment; and there should therefore be more taxes collected?

Mr. HALL. You know as well as I do that in a movement of this sort the new taxes do not come in at the time you need them. They may come in ultimately. Most of this land and most of these Federal reservations are tax exempt; and you will find them a practical burden on the State.

For example, I have it in my notes to point out about 9 Federal reservations in Virginia from which the State or the localities get nothing whatsoever. Yet there are thousands of children either on those areas or close to them who have to be taken care of by the localities; and the localities get nothing out of it.

Take York County in Virginia. The Federal Government has bought two-thirds of that county and, therefore, it cannot be taxed any more.

I could name several other counties where practically all of our taxable values have been taken over by the Government.

At this very moment, Caroline County is about to be absorbed by the Federal Government. That whole school system will be ruined so far as collecting money with which to run its schools is concerned. Senator ELLENDER. Isn't it a fact that the Federal Government has appropriated and is now building in quite a few places in Virginia at Government expense, school facilities for these boys and girls who live on these reservations?

Mr. HALL. I don't know of any.

Senator ELLENDER. You do not?
Mr. HALL. No, Senator.

Senator ELLENDER. Personally, I would treat the situation differently on a purely Government reservation. It strikes me that it is something that ought to be left entirely to the Federal Government.

Mr. HALL. But for years these Federal places like Dahlgren, Langley Field, Fortress Monroe, and so on, in our State have been

such that we have had to carry the whole burden. I believe you have been in the Senate long enough to know that consideration has been given to getting the Federal Government to help carry those Federal reservation projects.

Senator ELLENDER. I know that we provided funds in several bills for that purpose. Before the Senate Naval Affairs Committee some time ago we recommended several million dollars in order to put up Federal buildings in Virginia and in Georgia, as I recall.

Mr. HALL. I don't know of any schools that were constructed by the Federal Government except in the housing project at the national park. But that is just one project. The big problem has not been met at all. At least, if it has been met, I am not aware of it.

I was going to say that the figure for new buildings is $4,372,600, or for alterations or additions; for operation and maintenance $131,276; for the transportation of these children to the schools $187,720; for the salaries of teachers, $534,430; or a grand total of $5,714,116.

That is what we are confronted with. And we must have assistance either one way or the other. And as I listened to Mr. McNutt this morning, I did not see that there is any necessary conflict between the two pictures. But if there are conflicts they can be ironed out by the committee in dealing with the two bills.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a naval reservation in your State?

Mr. HALL. Yes; the Quantico Station. And, of course, there is the navy yard in the Norfolk area.

The CHAIRMAN. Are schools being put on the naval reservation? Mr. HALL. There is at Quantico. But that is on the ground of and is run by the Federal Government.

The CHAIRMAN. It is run by the Navy, is it?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. If I have misstated things from that angle, I wish to correct myself accordingly.

Senator ELLENDER. That is what I had in mind.

Mr. HALL. Then, I beg your pardon.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. I think it is unnecessary for me to burden you with listening to any further remarks. But I have made three points. First, that this bill will help to clear up inequalities between the States and within the States; second, this bill will help us to wipe out inequalities in terms of education between the races; third, it will certainly give us an opportunity to expand our program of vocational education and at the same time not reduce our program of general education. And unless this thing is done, it means only two things, as I see it: First, with reference to inequalities between races, the money must either be taken from the white teachers and given to the Negro teachers-which the Negroes themselves do not want done, or the school program as a whole must be reduced considerably and new taxes added to meet the obligation.

I sincerely hope that something can be done by way of favorable action in this Congress.

Senator ELLENDER. Is the bill so drafted that the Board will have the authority to provide for proper ratio as between whites and Negroes?

Mr. HALL. If Senate bill 1313 is passed, with the present set-up of apportionment in it, I would say that that would be taken care of by the bill.

The CHAIRMAN. The reporter will see that the statistical matter referred to is put in at this point.

(The statement above referred to, "Summary of estimated school housing needs in connection with defense housing" is as follows:) Summary of estimated school housing needs in connection with defense housing

5, 172 153, 000 332, 090 4, 372, 600 131, 276 187, 720 534, 430 5,714, 116

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Sutton?

STATEMENT OF DR. WILLIS A. SUTTON, SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS, ATLANTA, GA.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. Will you state your name and address and any other information about yourself that you wish to put into the record? Dr. SUTTON. My name is Willis A. Sutton. I am superintendent of schools, Atlanta, Ga.

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I have written no formal statement, having been on a commission during the past 2 weeks, and I have not been home recently. I have some data that I would like to have included in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. We will receive your printed matter and it will be put in by the reporter at the proper place in the record.

Dr. SUTTON. It seems to me that in this bill you are taking the better course with reference to Federal aid than in any other bill that has been proposed. As I understand it, there are four phases where Federal aid would ensue if this bill were passed.

In those territories where we need the additional schoolhouses, teachers, and facilities on account of this defense program and those

districts where children and their parents move from one territory to the other, this bill would provide relief.

However, there are two phases of it that I wish to speak to for just a moment. The first is with reference to equalization of educational opportunities between the rural section and the urban communities. In the State of Georgia we are still largely rural people. And this holds for a great deal of the South. The teachers in rural sections are paid very poor salaries, due to the fact that there is but little property to be taxed, so far as the local situation is concerned. That has been tremendously improved by the State's taking over a part of this burden in the last few years. We have only had what we might call a State system of schools for about 4 years. While we had some State aid previous to that time, 4 years ago we adopted laws that gave us better State support. But even with that better State support, the rural sections are suffering tremendously.

That does not apply only to the sections within the State but through the whole of the rural sections throughout the United States, as well as in the South, I imagine.

I think it ought to be known and understood that the effort that is being made, especially by the Southern States, to take care of education, is the supreme effort in education in this country.

The little community in which I was born and reared, for example, after it had paid it 5 mills county-wide tax, as well as its State tax for education, still has such a small amount of property that it adds 15 mills on the local school district in order to maintain what they think is a good school system.

Senator ELLENDER. In that connection, Dr. Sutton, prior to 1928 we had some communities in Louisiana that taxed themselves as much as 70 mills?

Dr. SUTTON. Yes, Senator.

Senator ELLENDER. What proportion of the school burden is borne by the State in Georgia? Can you tell us?

Dr. SUTTON. That varies, because in a great many sections of the State the State money is practically all that they get. In Atlanta, for example, it is about 20 percent.

Senator ELLENDER. Eighty percent by the State?

Dr. SUTTON. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER., I mean 20 percent by the State.
Dr. SUTTON. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. And 80 percent by the local district?

Dr. SUTTON. Yes, Senator. In this little district that I speak of, it is about 20 percent from the State and 80 percent by the local district.

Senator ELLENDER. What is the largest contribution that is made. to any county in the State of Georgia? Give us the percentage. Dr. SUTTON. From the State?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Dr. SUTTON. As I say, in a great many sections it is the whole thing.

Senator ELLENDER. A hundred percent?

Dr. SUTTON. Yes; that is correct. The recent law exempts up to a certain amount of money the property on which a man lives, and his household furniture; and it has practically wiped out everything except what the State gives.

Senator ELLENDER. We have that same situation in Louisiana at the present time.

Dr. SUTTON. So I think the situation is very serious when it comes to the question of rural communities.

Now, here is where that touches all of us. For example, in Atlanta we are confronted with the situation of these people moving from rural sections where they have had very poor school facilities; and they are irregular in their work; and they are a very, very great burden upon the city to which they come.

What is happening in Georgia, I suppose, is very much like what is happening in Virginia, and I am sure all over the country; that is, that people are moving to where they can get better school facilities.

I was trying to divide the situation as to the Negro and the rural schools; but for the time being I want to speak of both of them. For instance, Atlanta is becoming the mecca for all the Negroes in Georgia; and here is the situation that confronts us. The average Negro teacher in Atlanta receives $1,300 as a yearly salary. The average Negro teacher in the State receives about $500, although I do not remember just exactly that it is. But you can easily see how the teachers will migrate.

Now, what happens to the teachers happens to the schools, because if they have a $500 teacher the chances are that they have a $500 school; and that Negro realizes, "If I can move to Atlanta, I can get a better school for my children."

The result is that in the city of Atlanta, which is a very small corporation so far as area is concerned, we have moved up from 27 percent Negroes to 38 percent Negroes. The residential section, of course, is expanding outside the city limits and the white people, for the most part, are moving out there and are selling their property to the Negroes. So within a short time, if things move as they have been moving, we will have 50 percent Negroes within the city. That is because we are paying better salaries. That is what is happening. We are depleting the whole back country; we are reducing tax values. I could give you my own little home county as an example, where I sold land myself in 1918 at $60 an acre, and that land changed hands a number of times up until 1938, when I bought it back for $3.25.

The people have moved away. They have moved toward the schools. As they have moved toward the schools fewer and fewer people live out there, and that land is less and less desirable, and the tax value of it is all gone. The few people who do continue to live there have absolutely nothing so far as local taxes are concerned, with which to support their schools. That creates one of the most serious situations that I know anything about.

I want to speak about one particular phase of this, if I may, that may seem to be well, I would not say out of place, but it is a phase that possibly we have not thought much about. And that is that the wealth in this country consists in the culture and the education and the training of our people. If we think about it, I don't think we give much attention to it.

My thesis is this, that the barometer of good business in this country is the culture of the masses of the people. If you want to sell and exchange commodities and services, you have to have a high order of intelligence. With our foreign trade practically gone, we have a

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