Now, may I address myself for a few moments to some of the provisions of the present bill before you?

In the first place, it seems clear to me that the bill has wisely provided that the money which is authorized under the bill, $30,000,000, will actually be expended for purposes for which it was intended.

That means something, for the simple reason that in the older days prior to the time when the Federal Government was taking adequate care concerning matters of that kind, it was always possible to use the Federal money, which was supposed to be devoted to education, in ways that were not as wise as they might have been. I am referring, for example, to the original legislation leading up to the establishment of the colleges of agriculture and mechanic arts.

This bill provides that each State shall submit plans for the expenditure of the money allocated to it, within those respective States. That seems to be a very wise provision of the bill, because, as has already probably been brought to your attention, there are not merely inequalities between and among States, but there are inequalities within the States, which it is hoped may be eliminated in considerable part by requiring the States to submit plans which show that they have that intention in mind at the time the money becomes available.

Secondly, the bill also wisely provides that there shall be adequate audits of the money that is being expended within the States. Our experience not merely with respect to educational bills but with respect to others now leads clearly to the conclusion that these audits are entirely satisfactory for the purposes of the Federal Government. Finally, there are to be reports by the United States Commissioner of Education which are drawn from the several States and which can be made available publicly in order that public opinion may have the opportunity to play upon what is being done in the several States with respect to the money being expended therein.

So I conclude from this that the money which is contemplated to be appropriated under this bill will actually be expended for the purpose intended, without waste.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask you, Doctor, what were the difficulties in the beginning of the land grant colleges expenditures?

Dr. Zook. Simply the fact that the land which was given to the States was given to them without any kind of provision for checking on the manner in which the States disposed of the land the proceeds of which were used as an endowment for the colleges of agriculture and mechanic arts. In other words, the Federal Government simply turned over to the States the whole business without keeping any adequate check upon what was being done.

The CHAIRMAN. So there was no uniformity of expenditures in States or in neighboring States?

Dr. Zook. No, sir. But on the contrary in this bill the Federal Government is taking appropriate care to see that the money is really expended for the purposes intended. At the same time it seems to me that we can truly say that it is endeavoring to keep its hands off of the control of education.

When we use the term "control of education," obviously we have in mind that the Federal Government shall have nothing to do with the content of the courses of study that are offered in the schools in

the several States; and that it shall have nothing to do with the selection of the people who teach in the schools or administer the schools. This bill makes it crystal clear, it seems to me, that the Federal Government must keep its hands off of that kind of thing which we properly call Federal control of education.

Therefore, we have the interesting balance between the expenditure of the funds for the purposes intended under the control of the Federal Government on the one hand and the fact that the processes of education are not thereby controlled by the Federal Government.

I would like next to comment upon that provision in the bill which has to do with the allocation of the money on the part of the Federal Government to the various States. This bill provides that there shall be a board of five persons, not more than two of whom may be Federal officers, the other three obviously being civilians appointed from the country at large.

Those men and women are under obligation to take into consideration, first, the need of the several States on the one hand, and the ability of those same States, on the other hand, to do their job without the necessity of Federal aid.

The bill specifies exactly what is intended to be included under the heading of "Need," on the one hand, and of the "Ability" of the States, on the other, to take care of their own educational situation.

In this way we believe that the Federal Government has made it possible to develop formulas for the purpose of taking care of this situation adequately and fairly among the States, without binding itself in law, as has sometimes been done in the past, to accept any particular formula permanently because it is written into the law. I would like to say that from my point of view that is one of the wisest provisions that this bill contains, because it does give an opportunity for the studies that are constantly being made to be reflected in changes in that formual from time to time as wisdom dictates. So, as I say, I should like to commend that most favorably to your attention.

Another provision of the bill in which I am particularly interested has to do with the use of a portion, a very small portion, of this fund for the support of State departments of education.

I need not tell you gentlemen that certain aspects of the educational system have made great strides and are strong. There are certain other aspects of the educational system as one views it from ocean to ocean that are weak and have not been as well developed as the others.

One of the weakest links in our educational system under present circumstances is the rather low estate generally of the State departments of education. When it is remembered that it was the intention of the founders of our Government to locate the real control of education in the States rather than in the Federal Government, and in the localities, it becomes exceedingly important that the leadership in the States should really be strong instead of weak. If it is a fact, therefore, that the leadership as represented by the State departments of education there are some exceptions to this-is upon a rather weak basis, then it is one of the most unfortunate situations that we have.

This bill provides that a certain small proportion of the funds set aside here may be expended to build up these State departments of education. In fact, one can say with some confidence that unless we

have strong and intelligent State departments of education one could not have any too much confidence that the plans which those respective States put up to the Federal Government would be wisely drawn.

Therefore, from the point of view of the Federal Government itself, let alone education in general, it seems extremely important that the State departments of education be strong and intelligent.

One of the ways in which this can be done is to provide a merit system for all the members of these State departments with the exception of the individual who is directly in charge of the State department of education.

I would like to draw a parallel here. I am sure that you are well acquainted with the fact that in practically every one of the States there is a strong bureau of public roads. Why do the States have strong bureaus of public roads? It is because the Federal Government, in dealing with the States so far as roads are concerned, felt that it was necessary that there should be strong bureaus of public roads in all the States in order that the cooperation between the Federal Government on the one hand, and the States on the other, might really be effective. In other words, in an entirely different field, one sees the necessity, not simply the desirability, of building up strong State situations which are in a position to cooperate effectively with the Federal Government.

Senator BUNKER. You are acquainted with the fact that the Federal Government dominates the policy of the States on roads? Dr. Zook. It may do that to a considerable extent.

Senator BUNKER. You are convinced that that would not be the case in this instance?

Dr. Zook. I do not see any reason why it should be under the present bill.

Senator BUNKER. You feel that it should not be done? You feel that it should be prevented?

Dr. Zook. I certainly do. That is why I addressed some remarks to this point earlier in my statement.

There is another feature of this bill which interests me to a considerable extent, and that is the feature which has to do with schoolhouse construction.

During the time that I was United States Commissioner of Education, from 1933 to 1934, nothing came more strongly to my attention than the weak situation which existed throughout the country because of the very large number of unnecessary small rural schools. When I speak of this, I do not mean to say that one could eliminate all oneroom schools. It becomes very clear when one compares the situations between and among States-I had the opportunity, Senator, at one time to compare the situation between Utah, on the one hand, and of Idaho on the other. If I remember correctly, there are something like 50 school districts in the State of Utah, or there were at that time that I made the study in Utah, but a very much larger number of school districts in the State of Idaho, where, from my point of view, they had not been wise in making the same kind of concentration of school facilities that had occurred in the State of Utah. Yet those 2 States are very much alike so far as wealth and population are concerned, and everything else except the fact that one State had been very wise in concentrating school facilities and the other had not.

This bill provides that a portion of this money can be expended for the purpose of building schools. I am trying to say that by developing a wise program of building schools in this country we can, in my opinion, do more for the improvement of education as a whole than by any other one thing that can be done through the expenditure of Federal funds.

So I should like to approve in the heartiest manner possible the provision in this bill having to do with the possible use of Federal funds for schoolhouse construction, as well as for other purposes.

Finally, I would like to end with the same comment that the previous speaker did; that has to do with the availability of 1 percent of this possible appropriation for studies on the part of the United States Office of Education.

As a member of President Roosevelt's Advisory Committee on Education, because of the experience that I happened to have as United States Commissioner of Education, I felt that it was particularly desirable that we should have an opportunity really to make some extensive studies in the field of education out of Federal funds.

May I again draw a parallel? It was about the year 1890 when people began for the first time to make extensive studies in the field of education; and it was about the same year that we began to spend a good deal of money on research for agriculture.

We have spent millions of dollars of Federal funds in developing agricultural production in this country. There was a time when there wasn't anything in the nature really of agricultural knowledge. It was in the same state as knowledge relative to education. Everything in agriculture was largely opinion. But today, as a result of that extended research program carried on by the Department of Agriculture, we have to a very considerable extent solved our problems of agricultural production. There are many others in the field of distribution and other places; but we no longer have the same problems in production that we used to have.

In the meantime, over here is the United States Office of Education, which has had but a mere pittance of money for investigations in the field of education as compared with investigations in the field of agriculture. In other words, we have been denied through Federal funds the opportunity to carry on these extended studies and research relative to human beings and their development while we seem to have had a great deal of money for the purposes of carrying on researches and studies that had to do with everything else on the farm except the individuals who were going to run it.

So I appeal to you to make available through this bill whatever funds can be set aside for the United States Office of Education to carry on these studies in order that we may continue to solve our problems as a result of knowledge rather than as a result of mere opinion.

I think, Mr. Chairman, that is all I have to say, unless there are some questions.

The CHAIRMAN. In connection with your last statement, Doctor, comparing the educational research with the agricultural research, could research in regard to agriculture have gone on in the way in which it has gone on in this country in the last 40 or 50 years without Federal aid to the land-grant institutions, which has probably fur

nished both the training for the men and the laboratory equipment and even the real incentive for the work which the Department of Agriculture has directed?

Dr. Zooк. That is very true, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps you will remember that when the agricultural experiment stations were first established quite a number of them were not established in connection with the agricultural colleges. Today, so far as I know, in every State in the Union those agricultural experiment stations have been brought into close relationship with the resident teaching program and with the extension program of those same agricultural colleges. So the answer has been given to us as a result of developments over the years.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any regret or is there any regretful criticism from one end of our country to the other that has come about as a result of the Federal Government's going into the agricultural experiment work that you know about?

Dr. Zook. I have never heard any which I regarded as being of any considerable importance. I would say that there has arisen from time to time some difference of opinion between the Federal authorities, on the one hand, and the States on the other. But without having more than a few instances of close opportunity for observation, I would say that they have always been able to iron out those difficulties with a minimum of friction, and to the satisfaction of the State authorities, which I would understand to mean that the States feel as if they are preserving their liberties and responsibilities.

I think there is one thing that I might add to that. In these more recent years it has been discovered, so I understand, that occasionally several States would be working upon the same problem in agriculture, and obviously the expenditure of money was going to be duplicated. In those instances the Department of Agriculture has exercised the right of bringing in the people concerned and trying to help them figure out an economical method of dealing with those situations. In some instances, as I understand it, they created regional experiment stations for certain problems. So with this exception all stations at the present time feel at liberty to turn their attention to anything they want to. It seems to me that is just good common sense.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Dr. Zook.

It is now 4:20, and there are several names on this list of gentlemen from out the city. I would like to know the pleasure of these gentlemen before we proceed. I want to be fair to them as to the time and also as to their convenience. If they have to return home tonight I will remain a little longer.

STATEMENT OF A. L. CRABLE, STATE SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION OF OKLAHOMA

Mr. CRABLE. Mr. Chairman, at present I am State superintendent of public instruction of Oklahoma.

This statement was prepared jointly by a committee that was appointed by the Oklahoma Education Association, of which C. M. Howell is secretary.

I desire respectfully to submit the following statement on the needs of the State of Oklahoma for Federal aid for public education within the categories set forth in bill S. 1313 by Senator Thomas.