I would like, however, to point out that there will be somewhere around 265,000 children in defense areas from families connected with defense activities for whom there will be no public-school facilities September 1941 unless some immediate provision is made for financing such facilities. About $115,000,000 will be required for new school sites, buildings, and equipment, transportation and other current operating expenses, including teachers' salaries. As Coordinator of Health and Welfare in the national-defense program, I am concerned that proper educational facilities be made available to the children of defense workers. If defense workers cannot have schools for their children the effect on their morale will be anything but wholesome. Your attention probably will be called to a bill, H. R. 3570, now pending before the House Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds, entitled “A bill authorizing an appropriation for providing additional community facilities made necessary by national-defense activities, and for other purposes." This bill has the support of the Federal Security Agency. Since the appropriation is $150,000,000 and includes recreational facilities, sewers, waterworks, and other community facilities, as well as schools, the amount will not be sufficient to meet school needs. There is no conflict between H. R. 3570 and S. 1313. Any funds that would become available from H. R. 3570 would not be duplicated under S. 1313, because of the express provisions of the latter bill. The CHAIRMAN. Governor, may I ask you a question there? The CHAIRMAN. Say both of these bills become law, would the administration of them be in the same agency? Mr. McNUTT. Under 3570 the President would designate the agency which would administer aid to schools. The CHAIRMAN. So there would be no conflict? Mr. McNUTT. There would be no conflict. That is by express provision of S. 1313. Senator ELLENDER. These school facilities are provided for by the bill that is being considered in the House of Representatives? Mr. McNUTT. It would be a matter of apportioning that money. It covers not only school facilities but recreational facilities, sewers and waterworks, and other community facilities. Senator ELLENDER. You indicated a moment ago it would require $150,000,000. Mr. McNUTT. That is right, and there will not be $115,000,000 out of $150,000,000 available, that is perfectly obvious. Senator ELLENDER. How much of it would be available? Mr. McNUTT. There has been no determination as to how that fund will be divided. As a matter of fact, there is some disagreement as to how the fund should be divided. H. R. 3570 authorizes an appropriation to be used by the President in providing the various community facilities needed in defense activities through Federal agencies designated by him, in accordance with such directions and conditions as he may prescribe. This would seem to leave the matter up to the President. Senator HILL. It is a surprise that there should be some disagreement as to the division. Mr. McNUTT. What is that? Senator HILL. It is a surprise that there should be some disagreement as to the division of the funds. Mr. McNUTT. The need is so immediate that any disagreement should be resolved in the immediate future. That bill deserves attention now. Senator ELLENDER. Governor, do you think it is a correct course to pursue, to include in the pending bill this emergency feature of providing for pupils? Do you not think it might be best to consider the problem in a separate bill? Mr. McNUTT. I would have no objection. The point is to have the money available to meet these emergency needs. Whichever bill will pass first, that is the place where the money should be put, because we need it right now. As far as school facilities in defense areas are concerned, that money must be available and facilities erected by September of this year if we are going to meet the need. Recreational facilities are needed, all of them are needed right now. Senator ELLENDER. In making your estimates for the purposes of the bill, you say you are backing this other bill? Mr. McNUTT. Yes. Senator ELLENDER. You are fostering it? Mr. McNUTT. Yes. Senator ELLENDER. Did your office support that part of the appropriation to be used for education? Mr. McNUTT. No; while we, of course, supplied such data as we had, at the time that was under consideration an adequate survey had not been made of all these needs. We would simply have to make a distribution of what funds are made available. I felt that the sum was too low at the outset. Senator ELLENDER. You simply suggested a lump sum? Mr. McNUTT. The total of the estimates for various purposes greatly exceed $1,500,000, the lump sum. These estimates are in some instances based on assumptions which I feel undershoot the mark, for example, those made as to the effect of concentrations of men. We have concentrations of troops moving in adjacent to communities that have a population of 1,000 or so, that cannot possibly take care of the influx of those who would normally follow such a concentration. In the World War we had 1.4 persons outside of every camp to every person inside, and certainly at this time there will be at least one person out of the camp for everyone inside. We have industrial concentrations of 15,000 workmen going into a community which, by the 1940 census, was 864. Now you cannot see a community of 864 persons absorbing an additional influx of 15,000 men with their families. Now there is one spot where there might be educational facilities, and happily, in the particular one to which I refer, they had made their survey, they know precisely what they need, and they have their plans already on file and as soon as the other money is available they are ready to start. Does that answer your question, Mr. Chairman and Senator Ellender? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Thank you, Governor. Mr. McNUTT. I have given some attention to the problem of equitable apportionment incident to grants for education, and have conferred with some of the leading educational authorities on the possible methods and plans. There are several satisfactory methods of doing this, and I understand these will be discussed by Mr. Reeves, Mr. Dawson, and others. The chief problem is to set up a plan that will be reasonably certain to allocate the funds to the States in proportion to their needs for funds. It would be possible insofar as funds for general equalization of educational opportunities are concerned to write a formula into the bill. The present situation, however, is complicated by the need for educational facilities in defense areas, the need for educational facilities for children residing on Federal reservations, and for the children of migratory workers. Establishment of a Board of Apportionment as proposed in S. 1313 would, in my opinion, result in the allocation of funds in proportion to need and, at the same time, save any Federal official who deals directly with the States from the charge of having influence over State educational policies through the power to determine the amount of funds going to the State. I subscribe heartily to the policy stated in section 2 of S. 1313, forbidding Federal interference with the organization and administration of schools, the control of processes of education, the control and determination of curricula of the schools, the methods of instruction to be employed in them, and the selection of personnel employed. As a final word, I would like to say that in the decisions this Nation. makes respecting its support of public education, it is dealing with one of the deathless values of civilization, a value more vital to this modern day than to any civilization of simpler centuries. If a nation is shortsighted in the decisions it makes, it cannot confine the wages of its sins to the generation that blunders. We can defer building a road, a bridge, or a building, and catch up on its construction later. We cannot put educational opportunity for our children in cold storage for the duration of the war, or even of a period of financial stress, and restore it later to an unschooled generation grown old. These must go through life a lost generation poisoning the processes of popular thought, political action, economic prosperity, and the national defense with their ignorance, lack of skill, and undisciplined judgments. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Governor. The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Reeves, please. STATEMENT OF DR. FLOYD W. REEVES, CHAIRMAN OF THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION, FEDERAL SECURITY AGENCY The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, give your name and title, as you wish it to appear in the record, please. Dr. REEVES. My name is Floyd W. Reeves. I am professor of administration at the University of Chicago, but for some time I have been on a leave of absence from the university. Since June of 1939 I have served as director of the American Youth Commission of the American Council on Education and at present I am also serving as Director of Labor Supply and Training in the Office of Production Management. For a period of 20 years I have been studying these problems of educational finance. The first extensive study in this field on educational finance inquiry was just 20 years ago. I served on that staff and prepared one of the volumes in that report. When the Advisory Committee on Education was appointed by the President in 1936 he asked me to serve as Chairman. The committee was named the President's Committee on Vocational Education. The title of the committee was changed in April 1937 to the Advisory Committee on Education and four new members were added at that time. The committee has been inactive now for the last 2 years and I am appearing today as an individual who is interested in the pending legislation. I do not know the attitude of the administration concerning the bill, S. 1313, and nothing I say should be interpreted as representing any commitment on the part of the administration. I might point out in the beginning that not only is the American Youth Commission on record in favor of Federal aid to education— and I understand a member of that commission, the chairman of the executive committee, will appear later in these hearings-but the Advisory Committee on Education was unanimous in its recommendation for Federal aid to reduce educational inequalities, with particular reference to the rural areas. Another conference that made its report last year, the White House Conference on Children in & Democracy, after very extensive study of problems of the educational needs of children and youth, is also on record in favor of Federal aid to education, with particular stress upon the rural areas. The Advisory Committee on Education was not primarily a committee of educators, it was a committee made up with a majority of laymen. There were 8 from educational institutions, 13 were laymen, and out of the 13 laymen 5 of them held positions in the Federal Government, 3 were from the field of business, 3 from the field of organized labor, and 2 had other occupations. The committee carried on its work from September 1936 until the spring of 1939. Twenty staff studies were made by the committee and published. Nineteen of them were published by the committee and one, which was made in cooperation with the American Youth Commission and National Resources Planning Board, was published by the American Youth Commission. These studies cover the whole range of Federal relations to the conduct of education in the States and local communities. Now I would like, Mr. Chairman, to file some specific information which I would like to have included in the report. This material includes some tables and charts which were presented to the committee 2 years ago. Where possible the data have been brought up to date. The CHAIRMAN. They will be included in the proper place. Dr. REEVES. Senator Ellender mentioned the effect of spreading the defense industries, and asked what their effect would be with reference to education. I would like to comment on that point. I am interested in that as a Director of Labor Supply and Training for the O. P. M. and there I can observe what is happening and see the difficulties we have in carrying on this training program. The fact of the matter is that in general the places where the defense industries were located in the beginning, were the places where there are the best educational facilities. But of the great reservoir of labor that is going to be needed soon, a very large part is in the rural areas and in rural States where there are almost no facilities to provide the voca tional training of the type needed to train for defense industries. One exception to that possibly would be in the shipbuilding industry, where the concentration, as you know, is pretty much along the coast. But to spread out this defense industry in some of the rural areas in the central and southern parts of the United States, not only do we need labor but we need trained labor, and that means that training facilities must be provided. So I would say, from the standpoint of the need for labor supply for defense in the months that are ahead it becomes very important that school facilities be provided, and they can be provided only through the aid of the Federal Government. Senator ELLENDER. Doctor, am I to understand that the educational facilities were adequate where this new development took place? Dr. REEVES. No; the situation is very spotty, but to the extent that the new developments have taken place in our centers of population, like some cities in New York, for example, and in Connecticut, we find vocational schools are there. When a plant is located in southern Indiana, as was done at Charlestown, the rural labor supply that is needed is there, but there are not adequate school facilities in which to train them. Senator ELLENDER. I can well understand that in a situation as you describe provisions should be made, because such a facility is being erected and established on a permanent basis. But, where we have these defense projects that may, as happened after the first World War, become obsolete and useless, we will have a lot of people there without employment. Those are the conditions that I had in mind. In other words, how can we deal with them when they are not of a permanent nature? Just how far should we go? How much should the Government expend to erect school buildings to take care of this-I would say migratory population? Dr. REEVES. It seems to me that it is sound policy, to whatever extent is possible, to locate defense industries where the people are. It avoids many bad situations. Now the great reservoir of labor, the last reservoir that is going to be tapped is in the very States where they do not have school facilities at the present time, and where there is practically nothing in the way of trade-and industrial-school equipment.. Senator ELLENDER. As a matter of fact that has been the trouble with our whole educational system. I think we have made a partial failure of it myself. It has been shown under the present emergency. Our educators have seen fit to expand more for the benefit of the socalled white-collared students than for the education of boys and girls who work with their hands; they have neglected teaching them how to work with their hands. We tried to make changes in my own State, in the consolidation of schools and the establishment of trade schools. We could not get very far with consolidations, but we have maintained quite a few trade schools. It strikes me that what we should have done in the past and what we ought to do in the future is to develop our educational facilities so that most of our boys and girls will learn how to work with their hands rather than educate them to be lawyers, teachers, doctors, and professions of that kind. Dr. REEVES. I certainly agree with you on that. The American Youth Commission made a statement to that effect, Senator, and so did the Advisory Committee on Education. Now, what I have done in looking over this bill is to give it some consideration from the point of view of the basic recommendations of the |