Mr. KEATING. You have suggested that the employment of girls under the age of 14 be prohibited?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. And the employment of boys under 12. Is that your idea?

Mr. CLARK. Prohibit the employment of boys between the ages of 12 and 14 except outside of school hours. I think a boy under 14 ought not to be allowed to work during the school term. He is entitled to have an education.

Mr. KEATING. So that for nine months in the year, or at least during the school term, the limit should be 14 years for both boys and girls? Mr. CLARK. It would be about eight months. A boy would work four months in the year and go to school eight months.

Mr. KEATING. Does the school term in North Carolina consist of four months?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir. It runs, in most of the mill districts, from October to May, eight months. A boy would be in school for eight months, and during the four months' vacation he could work in the mills.

Mr. KEATING. And what is your idea of the hours of labor?
Mr. CLARK. Ten hours.

Mr. KEATING. Your idea is that children should be worked for 10 hours a day in the mills?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. How about night work?

Mr. CLARK. I do not think they should work girls or boys, either, under 16 years, at night. That, however, is my own personal opinion on the matter.

Mr. KEATING. So that on the night proposition you agree with the standard set up by the bill before the committee; you agree that that standard is a reasonable one?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. This bill provides that they can not be employed at night if they are under 16.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I think that is your provision.

Mr. KEATING. You think that would be a reasonable provision.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Now, here is a picture showing a group of girls who have been working at night for four years. I would like you to see this picture. These are all photographs.

Mr. KEATING. You do not mean to suggest to this committee that you would recommend night work for girls as a means of building up physique for young women?

Mr. CLARK. NO. That is the reason I took the 16-year position. Mr. KEATING. Then you consider the 16-year provision for night work reasonable?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. You understand, however, that in all of this I still take the position that it is unconstitutional.

Mr. KEATING. I understand, but I mean as a question of policy.
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. A 16-year limit for night work is reasonable?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. And a 10-hour day would be your idea of the proper length of a working day?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. Well, this bill provides for an eight-hour day.
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. And under certain conditions you believe that a 14year limit for boys and girls, for seven or eight months in the year, would be all right?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. That would be during the school period?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; for work out of the school period during vacation.

Mr. KEATING. Well, this bill provides for a 12-months prohibition of employment of children under 14.

Mr. CLARK. No. Theoretically it is 14, but practically it is 16. You can not get around that. That is how it will work out. That was the experience in Kentucky under a similar law.

Mr. KEATING. Under your theory, how many children would be affected by the difference between your standard and the standard as set up in this bill?

Mr. CLARK. Probably about 10,000.

Mr. KEATING. There are 10,000 children between the ages of 12 and 16 years working in the mills in the South?

theory or have you any detailed figures?

Is that your

Mr. CLARK. There are approximately 25,000 under 16 working in the mills now.

Mr. KEATING. In what States?

Mr. CLARK. In the Southern States; for instance. Virginia

Mr. KEATING (interposing). Have you the detailed figures?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. Will you furnish them?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. I have the figures from the North Carolina and South Carolina reports.

Mr. KEATING. And you base your estimate of the other States upon reports on those two States?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. The cotton mills are practically similar in the various cotton States.

Mr. KEATING. And there are 25,000 boys and girls employed in the mills of the South between the ages of 12 and 16?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; and there are probably 10,000 under 14.
Mr. KEATING. Are they white children?

Mr. CLARK. They are all white children, with very few exceptions.
Mr. KEATING. All white?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; practically all. In the testimony which Mr. Swift gave before your committee two years ago there was some intimation that we preferred white children because they were more skillful. As a matter of fact, the negro can not be made a cottonmill employee, and Mr. Swift knows that as well as I do. There is no question about the skill or anything like that. Every effort to use the negro, except in draying and hauling, has proven a failure. His characteristics are such that he can not be made a cotton-mill operative.

Mr. KEATING. So that the legislation, if passed, would affect white children exclusively?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; practically so. There are very few colored children employed in the mills unless for the purpose of scrubbing

floors and work of that kind. They are all native white children: none are foreign.

Mr. KEATING. Suppose it was shown to this committee that the practically unanimous opinion of the experts who have studied the matter in southern and western communities is that night work for children under 16 is very dangerous and damaging to their health, and that it is unwise to employ children under 14 years of age in mills, or under 16 years of age in quarries-which is practically the standard set up by this bill-and suppose it could be shown to this committee by the best experts in the country that these standards are improved so far as the northern and western sections of the country are concerned, have you any reason to advance why the same conditions should not prevail in the South as prevail in the North and West?

Mr. CLARK. I do not admit that they have been improved.

Mr. KEATING. But for the sake of the argument, assuming that they have been improved, is there any material difference between the conditions in the North and South, so far as the employment of children is concerned?

Mr. CLARK. Well, the climatic conditions are different, of course. Our experience, being right among these people and seeing them for many years, is such

Mr. KEATING (interposing). Now, in what particular do you consider that climatic conditions would affect the employment of children in the mines, cotton mills, or quarries in the South?

Mr. CLARK. I do not know much about the mines. We have a very few mines. My opinion is based upon actual experience, seeing the operators and living with them. For a number of years I took my meals with them.

Mr. KEATING. In the North the people would not be exposed to weather conditions in the mills.

Mr. CLARK. But they have the windows open. In the South you do not have the rigor of the winter that you have in the North, and the investigation by the Massachusetts State Board of Health, under the direction of Dr. Safford, has just been completed, the subject under investigation being the question of whether the millwork injures boys. I tried to get a copy of the report, which was to have been printed by the first of this year and, while I could not secure a copy of the report, I was able to get some advance information regarding it. I know that Dr. Safford stated, after investigating two mills in New England and making a very thorough examination of the boys working in the mills, that he found the boys in excellent condition in certain mills.

Mr. NOLAN. What is the age limit in the State or Massachusetts? Mr. CLARK. Fourteen years, I think. I am not sure.

Mr. HOUSTON. I notice that the young women in this picture which you have handed around appear to be about 18 years of age. How many were employed in the factory where that picture was taken? Mr. CLARK. All of them were.

Mr. HOUSTON. I mean how many others were employed besides those shown in the picture?

Mr. CLARK. Those are the night girls. That is all of the night girls.

Mr. HOUSTON. Is that all of them?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HOUSTON. They work at night?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. VAN DYKE. How long have they been working at night?
Mr. CLARK. I should say on an average four or five years. The
night operative is in a distinct class from the day operative.
Mr. HOUSTON. They are girls?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Well, they have boys and girls.
Mr. HOUSTON. Where do the girls work?

Mr. CLARK. The work of the girls, especially the work of the younger girls, is in the spinning room. Their work is not so continuous or so hard as other classes of work. A girl in a sweatshop has to lean over a sewing machine all day, working under a strain, whereas the girl in the spinning room works at the spinning frame and the boy comes in and doffs the bobbin; that is, picks the bobbins off and takes them away and waits until he is called to take the bobbins off again. The work of boys and girls under 14 and under 16 in the South is very light. That is one reason why we would be glad to have you come down there and see for yourselves exactly what the conditions are.

Mr. HOUSTON. How many hours do the girls work at night?
Mr. CLARK. Ten hours.

Mr. HOUSTON. The whole service is night service?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. They work five nights in the week and get paid for six days.

Mr. SMITH. They work five nights out of seven?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. NOLAN. Mr. Clark, from the looks of these girls in this photograph this legislation would affect but a very few of them, so far as the girls in that picture are concerned.

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. NOLAN. They are considerably over the age limit.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. You say that this legislation will put 25,000 boys and girls out of employment in the mills of the South.

Mr. CLARK. Practically so.

Mr. KEATING. Now, it would be necessary for the mill owners to employ substitutes for those 25,000 employees.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. And they would be compelled to employ adults. Mr. CLARK. They would have to employ operatives over 16; yes. Mr. KEATING. Now, in what particular would the mill owner be injured? Would he be compelled to pay higher wages?

Mr. CLARK. The mill itself would not be so greatly injured. The operative is going to feel it more than the mill. The greatest opposition to this bill is from the operatives.

Mr. KEATING. Then, as I understand you, you are not speaking in behalf of the owners of the mills, but on behalf of those who work in the mills.

Mr. CLARK. I am speaking on behalf of both of them. I deal with both of them. As editor of the Textile Bulletin I come in contact with both the owners and operatives.

Mr. KEATING. But you do not feel that it would injure the mills?

Mr. CLARK. Well, it would injure them to some extent, because naturally they will have to reorganize their employees and it will injure them for a while.

Mr. KEATING. The principal thought is to safeguard the interest of the children?

Mr. CLARK. It is not a question of safeguarding interests. The mill people need employment, and what are you going to offer them? They have not money enough to seek education. What are you going to do for them when you turn them out of the mills?

Mr. KEATING. Of course, that is a question that I do not expect to answer. I merely wanted to get at the motives of those who are opposing this legislation. I wanted to make it clear whether they were antagonizing this legislation on the ground that it would injure the business interests of the South, or whether they thought this legislation would oppress the children who are employed in the mills.

Mr. CLARK. It will injure the business interests to a certain extent and also turn out of employment a large class of people who need employment.

Mr. KITCHIN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a short statement.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Governor.

STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM WALTON KITCHIN, FORMER GOVERNOR OF NORTH CAROLINA.

Mr. KITCHIN. Mr. Chairman, if the committee will permit me to state this, since I am not permitted to ask questions of the witness: I represent the executive committee of the southern cotton manufacturers, and if you will allow me I will state the view that I wish to urge, and I hope the committee will develop from the witnesses the facts to support it. Their position is this: That this would do the mills great damage, and I will tell you why. Now, I am waiving the constitutionality of it, because I take it that the committee, which is composed largely of lawyers, I understand, will desire to hear that question discussed very fully; I am preparing a brief upon that point that I wish to submit to the committee and argue the question of the constitutionality of this legislation. Waiving that point, the position of the mill owners is this: That this legislation would do the mills great damage because it would disorganize labor. A great many of the tenants would probably have to vacate their homes and look for others. We recognize the fact that if this committee deems it advisable and desirable, and think that it is constitutional, they will pass this bill, just as they might pass a bill to prohibit the transportation of any product made by persons working more than six, seven, or eight hours a day. It therefore comes down to this point, as applicable to the men that I represent here: We insist that the children of the South, many of them, must labor. It is not a question of desire upon their part. It is a question of necessity. They must work. There are orphans, children of widows, and dependents who must work in order to live. Now, how to exclude them is a question for the State, because that class should be excluded from the operation of a law of this kind. But if you say that a child under 14 or under 16 must work—and you can not deny it if you are acquainted with