Take the mill work. There is no work in the mill that is laborious. You have got to be prompt; you have got to be punctual on the job, except in a few positions, such as doffing and weaving, things of that kind, where we allow them to go out in the yards and play base ball, and do anything they want, between times. Doffers, sweepers, and persons following vocations of that kind, do not work half their time, while they are being paid good wages for it.

We have a night school, and we have people attending that night school who are between 30 and 40 years of age, people who have come from the rural districts, and have had no advantages of that kind, and we are providing for the children that are coming up in the mills now.

The sanitary conditions of the mills are all that could be asked. Everything is in good shape, and all the mills that I know of are thoroughly disinfected every day, and they are clean and healthy, and the average child in the mills through the Piedmont section is in a much better condition, so far as his physical welfare is concerned, than the average child on the farm, or in most any other vocation, and we feel, gentlemen, that in changing this law, in making an effort to change it, we are going to be very, very materially injured in doing this.

I am satisfied that the men that have introduced this bill are just as sincere and just as honest in what they are trying to do as we are in trying to get them not to do it. They feel that we need it, but we, the people that are in the industry and are working for our livelihood, we know what we need, and we would like to be left alone to work out our salvation along that line.

The wages in the mills in South Carolina alone, in the last 22 years have increased from 57 cents each to $1.30 per day, on an average. Our wages average from 75 cents to $4 per day. Of course, the men at $4 per day are foremen and overseers, but the cthers are all making good salaries, and they live under the very best of conditions, good sanitary homes, good surroundings, good gardens, and good instruction, both moral and religious. They have our physical training there for them; and I notice some of the smaller mills have not got all of these things; but they are living under good conditions; they are doing well; they are providing for their families; and they are making good citizens.

I will state, in case some of the gentlemen should overlook asking, about balloting. A little while ago Mr. Clark stated about getting this petition up. I can not speak largely for the mills, but I can speak for four mills that I am connected with there, that the management of the mill had absolutely nothing in the world to do with the petitions that were gotten up. They got them up, and they sent them to a Congressman that is not representing our district. You can see if the mills had had it in charge whom they would have sent it to. I believe one of the gentlemen over here asked something about balloting on State politics, or something. There is no coercion on the part of the mills. We do not want to know whom they are supporting, and we do not want them to know whom we are supporting. We do not want to have anything to do with their political lives. All that we do is to give them every advantage that we can

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in a moral way, do everything that we possibly can for sanitation and everything possible for their education. We provide goo churches, and we pay the pastors, or help to pay them, and the med cal fraternity are well paid for their work. In fact, at our mill we d not employ a physician, but I know of a number of mills that d employ a physician regularly. We give them every advantage the we possibly can. We have nice halls there, and we have a goo band, and we pay the instructor, just for the benefit of the people, t give them pleasure. We run a picture show, and we buy the mush and keep up the work there, and we run that without any cost to the people at all, except the small amount of 5 cents for attending, and children under 10 years pay nothing; they go in free.

We have a playground, and everything of that kind, and we are happy and contented, and the living conditions are more than 10 per cent above what they were before we went to the mills, most of us. Some of the people I know were living under good conditions when they came to the mills, but 99 per cent of the people that come to the mills are people that were driven there through loss of a hus band, or something of the kind, driven there because they could not make a living on the farms, and they have come there and provided themselves with good furniture, and they have a good table, and if you would go down and look through the mills in the Piedmont section-I had a banker from New York the other day who came down there, and one thing he said was that he could tell every mill employee from the people of the town. Our town is small, and they mingle pretty freely, but every one that he selected was an operative of the mill, and he said that he selected them because of their robust condition, their rosy cheeks, etc.; that he had an idea that those that were sallow complexioned were not employees of the mill.

The conditions, as we find them down there, are much ahead of any other vocation, so far as salaries are concerned, or so far as living conditions are concerned, speaking as a whole, and we would like very much to be left to ourselves to work out these things. We are working, and will be glad to see the time come when we will have compulsory education. We have it optional in our State, but we want to see a State-wide compulsory educational law, where we can provide places for those children to go into, but you must give us time to work up to that point.

I submit, gentlemen, that if you discharge the children at the mills, er at any vocation, under 16 years of age, and let them loaf around on he streets, that the morals of the children are going to be corrupted; there is no question about that, and for the good of the children and for the good of the people we ask you to be kind enough to leave us alone.

I believe that is about all.

Mr. KITCHIN. How long have you been connected with the mills? Mr. SHERARD. I have been connected with the mills 23 years. I worked through every position in the mill from the card room up to superintendent of the mill. I started in the mill at 20 cents a day. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you concluded your statement in chief?

Mr. SHERARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SUMNERS. Mr. Chairman, I move that we take a recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

The CHAIRMAN. If that is the sense of the committee, we will take a recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12 o'clock m., the committee took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m.)

AFTER RECESS.

(The committee reassembled at 2 o'clock p. m., at the expiration of the recess, Mr. Watson presiding.)

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the committee will come to order.

Dr. McKELWAY. May I ask if there is any idea as to how much time will be taken in these hearings, because, if you need any rebuttal, there are some people I have not notified, to make reply.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Governor, how many of your people do you expect to put on the stand?

Mr. KITCHIN. There are three or four men here now, and there are some of the most important witnesses who have wired us they could not be here to-day. One or two of them said they did not know whether they could come this week, or not. We only had notice of this meeting, I believe it was Thursday night that I first had notice, and I want you to hear these witnesses, and we have a doctor who is something of a tuberculosis expert. In fact, he is the head of the North Carolina Tuberculosis Sanitarium, and a man of great ability and experience, that we expect to be here to-morrow, and I think we could get through our witnesses, if we can get the evidence, the witnesses, by to-morrow, anyway.

Dr. McKELWAY. You spoke of an argument on the constitutionality of the bill that you wanted to submit, Governor. Have you any idea as to when that will come?

Mr. KITCHIN. We want to hear all the evidence, and I would like to have about a day to get it in a little better shape, or I could make the argument here and have it reduced to writing, and amend it afterward, in time. I want to answer the arguments, of course, that were made last year by Mr. Lovejoy and Mr. Lewis from Philadelphia, and give the other side of that proposition.

Dr. McKELWAY. Those hearings would not be in force this year, I suppose, so it would be necessary that they should be here to answer that.

Mr. KITCHIN. I think they ought to be.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. If the committee wants to hear argument on both sides of the legal question, I take it they will afford either side an opportunity to be heard.

Dr. McKELWAY. I will have to give a little notice for them to come. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. The committee, in order to protect its place on the calendar so as to get before the House whatever will be the result of the work here, will have to make as much speed at this time as possible. I think everybody feels that these gentlemen ought not be cut off in their argument; that they should have sufficient time to deliberate and act.

Mr. KEATING. Mr. Chairman, would it be possible for us to arrange for the constitutional argument to-morrow afternoon?

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. I should judge from what Gov. Kitchin has said that he would want, after the evidence is in, some little time to prepare his argument.

Mr. KITCHIN. I think I could be of a little more assistance to you if I could arrange for a little more time to prepare what I have to say. I have looked up all the authorities, but I would like to have more time to prepare my argument.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. There will be no trouble about delivering your oral argument here and revising it as you please.

Mr. KITCHIN. Then I would be ready to go ahead at any time. Mr. KEATING. I wonder if we could reach an agreement to close the taking of testimony to-morrow afternoon at a certain time. How much time would you require, Doctor?

Dr. McKELWAY. Not much.

Mr. KEATING. If you got an hour and a half to-morrow afternoon, or two hours, would that be enough?

Dr. McKELWAY. As far as I am concerned. There are some people I would like to bring here from New York and Philadelphia.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Mr. Keating, we will have to cross that bridge when we get to it.

Mr. KEATING. I only wanted the doctor to notify his attorney to be here. The doctor is not in position to make the legal argument himself, as the governor is, and he can not afford very well to have his attorney absent.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. If you say so, he can wire him to come on here from New York and be prepared to argue after Gov. Kitchin gets through.

Mr. KEATING. Suppose we make an arrangement to listen to the legal argument on the proposition at 3 o'clock to-morrow afternoon?

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. If that is the sense of the committee, it is so ordered.

STATEMENT OF MR. W. M. SHERARD-Continued.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Now, gentlemen, this gentleman on the stand is ready to answer any question that any member of the committee wishes to ask him.

Mr. KEATING. Did I understand you to say that you represented an organization composed of the laborers and employees?

Mr. SHERARD. I am representing the laborers of the mill and the Southern Textile Association, composed of cotton-mill laborers and representatives of supply houses handling mill supplies.

Mr. KEATING. What is the name of the organization?
Mr. SHERARD. The Southern Textile Association.

Mr. KEATING. And its membership is made up of whom?

Mr. SHERARD. Of superintendents, overseers, mechanics, electricians, and salesmen, traveling salesmen handling mill supplies. Mr. KEATING. You do not include the laborers in the mills? Mr. SHERARD. No, sir.

Mr. KEATING. You include the more important employees and the traveling salesmen?

Mr. SHERARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. This bill would not affect any of the members of your organization, would it?

Mr. SHERARD. Yes; there are a number of them in the organization that have children working in the mills

Mr. KEATING. Are you a superintendent of the mill?
Mr. SHERARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. What mill is that?

Mr. SHERARD. The Williamston Mills, Williamston, S. C.
Mr. KEATING. How many persons are employed in your mills?
Mr. SHERARD. About 350.

Mr. KEATING. How many children under 16 years of age?

Mr. SHERARD. Under 16-I can not say positively. There is something between 30-about 30 to 35 I should say.

Mr. KEATING. Out of 320 employees of the mill, 30 are children between 14 and 16 years of age?

Mr. SHERARD. Between 30 and 40.

Mr. KEATING. Make it 40, so as to be safe. How many of the 40 are boys, and how many girls?

Mr. SHERARD. There are more girls than boys. I think about twothirds of them are girls.

Mr. KEATING. Twenty-five girls and fifteen boys would be your estimate?

Mr. SHERARD. Yes.

Mr. KEATING. How many of the boys are under 14 years of age? Mr. SHERARD. I expect three-fourths of those are under 14.

Mr. KEATING. How many of the girls, approximately?

Mr. SHERARD. Between 15 and 20 of them. I can not state. I did not make a note of that data. I know we got a statement up the first of the year for the commissioner of labor in the State, but I can not say positively just what the numbers were, but approximately about as I gave you.

Mr. KEATING. What, in your judgment, would be a reasonable age limit to place on the employment of children in cotton mills? How old do you think a child should be before it is employed in the cotton mills?

Mr. SHERARD. Well, in different States I should say there would be different conditions.

Mr. KEATING. Well, in your own mill?

Mr. SHERARD. Well, I should say that they ought to be; that the limit, if we had compulsory education, ought to be put up to 14 years; but unless we have some place to put those children it would be the wrong thing to do, and I think it ought to be worked out gradually that way. I think we ought to give the people time. The laboring people are not ready for a move of that kind.

Mr. KEATING. Taking your own town, have you school facilities for these 40 children if they should be released from the mills? Mr. SHERARD. Splendid schools; yes, sir.

Mr. KEATING. So there is a place to put them at the present time? Mr. SHERARD. Yes; but if they do not want to go, what are you going to do with them?

Mr. KEATING. Are the other children in your own town going to school who are not employed in the mills?

Mr. SHERARD. Some of them are; in fact, most of them are. Most of these would go to school, too; but there are some that you could not make go, and there is no employment for them.

Mr. KEATING. But in the same proportion as the other children in your town?

Mr. SHERARD. Yes.