Question. Has there been any punishment inflicted upon anybody for any of these offenses?

Answer. If there has been I do not know it.

Question. Is it possible for such offenses to have been committed in your county without a considerable number of persons knowing them and having knowledge of the facts? Answer. I think it is estimated that there have been from ten to fourteen, and perhaps as high as forty men in disguise seen about the county.

Question. If all of your people were opposed to it but those forty, and wanted to see those men brought to justice, do you not believe they could do it?

Answer. I believe this, that three-fourths of our people would be perfectly willing to bring them to justice, and would do it if they could.

Question. Do you suppose that if there were forty negroes or forty white radicals going about your county whipping democrats, taking their property, burning up their school-houses, churches, &c., they would not be hunted down and brought to punishment ?

Answer. I think that perhaps they might be more apt to be found out.

Question. Would not your people turn out and hunt them?

Answer. Well, I suppose they might do that; I do not know that they would be any apter to do it than now.

Question. Do you not know the fact that a great many people in your county are gratified to see these things done by the Ku-Klux?

Answer. I do not think there is now; I think the time has been when a great many of our people winked at it and did not care for it. I think that was so at one time, but I think the sentiment of the people has changed very much.

Question. What has changed it ?

Answer. I think they saw it was wrong; that it was carried too far; that they were committing depredations that they ought not to do.

Question. I understand that when you made your examination in the grand-jury room, and denounced these things as outrages, one of the two papers in your town eame out and denounced you and upheld the Ku-Klux?

Answer. Well, sir, they criticised us very severely.

Question. Do not those papers represent the public opinion there?

Answer. I do not think they do now.

Question. Do they not represent the opinion of the party that has the majority in elections?

Answer. Yes, sir; they do.

Question. You had an election there last winter, in December?

Answer. I do not think we did.

Question. Did you not have an election last December for members of the legislature? Answer. I do not recollect when the election came off, for I pay but little attention to politics.

Question. Was there not a very large democratic majority in your county?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. A majority of several hundreds?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Was that election before or after you made your presentment against the Ku-Klux?

Answer. The report I allude to was made in January; this election came off, I suppose, before that.

Question. Came off in December?

Answer. I suppose so.

Question. At that election were colored people and radical white men kept away from the polls through fear?

Answer. I do not think they were; I never saw anything of it.

Question. Do you not know that some who were republicans voted the democratic ticket through fear?

Answer. No, sir; if they did, I have no knowledge of it.

Question. Do you know a man of the name of Drennon, a blacksmith, who lives some two miles out from your city?

Answer. I partly know him.

Question. What sort of a man is he?

Answer. A blacksmith; that is all I know about him. He has a little shop at the cross-roads; I pass it in the summer sometimes, and I have had some little transactions with him in the way of trade.

Question. Does he stand well for a man in his walk of life?

Answer. I suppose so. I have credited him upon his word of honor, and he has paid

me.

Question. If he were to tell you that, although a republican, he had voted the democratic ticket through fear, would you believe him?

Answer. I should have to believe him; but I should think it would be strange for

him to do such a thing. I know his neighbors there, who are pretty resolute men, Mr. Camp and some others he associates with, and they voted the radical ticket. I would not have thought that he would have been afraid, for he is not a scarey man.

Question. You never had the Ku-Klux wait on you?

Answer. No, sir. I never saw one in my life; or, if I did, I never had any knowledge of it.

Question. You were never whipped by them?

Answer. No, sir.

By Mr. BAYARD:

Question. You were asked by the chairman just now whether the evidence before the grand jury in a certain case was not satisfactory to you in finding an indictment, and you answered that it was, and that you found it.

Answer. In regard to one case.

Question. That man, you say, was tried and acquitted?

Answer. No, sir; he never has been arrested.

Question. There was a case in which you found a true bill against a man who was tried and acquitted?

Answer. Yes, sir

Question. The chairman asked you whether the evidence to find a bill was not sufficient to convict the party. Do grand juries hear any of the evidence for the defense? Answer. Not at all.

Question. Then you could not tell whether the evidence was sufficient to convict until you heard the other side?

Answer. I could only tell what was before me; I could not tell how these things were. This man Calhoun was shot, and he swore positively that it was those men who shot him.

Question. He swore that before the grand jury?

Answer. Yes, sir; and we found a true bill against those parties. They were arrested and were brought up for trial, but they proved an alibi. “I think that is the ground upon which they were acquitted.

Question. The evidence was sufficient for you to make a presentment against them, but when they came to trial they had countervailing testimony?

Answer. That is my recollection; I did not hear the trial in the court below at all. Question. It is not yet the custom in your country to convict a man without hearing the evidence for the defense?

Answer. Not at all; we always hear that. When a person is brought up for trial in our State his witnesses are brought in. The solicitor furnishes us the names of the witnesses which we swear, and we act upon their evidence.

Question. There was evidence from some. witnesses brought before you that this affidavit of Penny, which has been spoken of, had been procured from him by corruption and bribery; that he had been paid to make it, and on that account you disregarded it? Answer. That was the sum and substance of it. We elicited this fact from a witness, that if he would turn State's evidence against this party he would be acquitted, and was to have the reward.

Question. You did not give any credit to his testimony?

Answer. The jury did not. I never vote in any case except in case of a tie. gave but one vote during the term I served as foreman.

I never

Question. Had there not been very large, unusually large, money rewards offered by Bullock for the conviction of criminals?

Answer. Yes, sir; $16,000 or $17,000.

Question. Something unusual for your part of the State?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Were there any facts known to the community to justify the belief that persons would procure themselves to be indicted and to be convicted in order to obtain a large reward after a short term of imprisonment?

Answer. That was the public sentiment there, and we canvassed that fact before the jury. There will be a witness before you next, I think, Colonel Foster, who will testify to this matter. He is a man of veracity and truth.

Question. That corrupt condition of affairs existed there?

Answer. That was in the minds of the grand jury.

Question. The idea was that men would come in, turn State's evidence, and get the reward, and the parties would be convicted and turned out in a short time by Governor Bullock?

Answer. That was the understanding; but those parties never were identified at all. Question. That was not a controlling fact in your action?

Answer. No, sir. That matter was considered, but it was not controlling.

Question. The return of your grand jury was made without reference to that rumor? Answer. Entirely; but it was canvassed in the jury. But there was no evidence in the jury-room that I think any man of this committee, knowing the laws of Georgia

and the way this case was got up, would have considered sufficient to find a true bill

on.

Question. You were asked just now in regard to the general presentment which you made at the end of your session, and of which you have promised to furnish us a copy. You say that was taken up and discussed by your new spapers, one or both of them? Answer. I think by both of them.

Question. Did they assail your statement in the presentment, or did they uphold the organization of the Ku-Klux?

Answer. They did not uphold the order of the Ku-Klux, but they denied the statement we made.

Question. I understood the chairman to ask you if the newspapers upheld the Ku

Klux:

Answer. I do not think that was the intention of the newspapers.. I think they were perhaps misled on that subject. But fortunately one of them was afterward caught out by them and made to dance and jump; that was the rumor I heard.

Question. What was his name?

Answer. His name was Sawyer. I do not know whether it is correct, but I suppose it is as correct as the other cases I heard.

Question. He is the editor of a democratic paper?

Answer. Yes, sir; and one that denounced the proceedings of the jury.

Question. He was brought out and made to dance?

Answer. Yes, sir. He was on his way home one night and they caught him and made him dance.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. They mistook him for somebody else?

Answer. I do not know how that is.

By Mr. BAYARD:

Question. You have spoken here about elections. You have been present at elections and cast your own vote there?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Have they generally been peaceable and orderly in your county?

Answer. As much so as they ever were before the war.

Question. Have you observed that black men, or men of the radical party, have been deterred from voting at all?

Answer. No, sir; not a bit.

Question. Have there been Union Leagues among the black people in your county? Answer. I do not think there is any there now; I have heard that at one time they did exist.

Question. Do you know of the colored people themselves influencing and intimidating each other in order to compel them to vote a particular ticket?

Answer. There are a few negroes who will vote the democratic ticket; in some instances they have been abused and run off; and I have no doubt that in some instances they have been intimidated.

Question. How do they vote as a rule?

Answer. They would generally come from the church in a body, and walk right up, the whole crowd of them, and vote; now, they vote more promiscuously; but a year or two back, they would come up from the church, seventy-five or a hundred in a body, led by a few white men,' and go up to the polls and deposit their votes.

Question. The only instance of intimidation you know of is that of colored people upon their own race?

Answer. If there has been any, it has been upon that side more than upon the other; I have known but few negroes who have complained to me of being abused by their own color for voting the democratic ticket.

By Mr. LANSING :

Question. You say that those men who were charged by indictment with having committed these outrages got clear by proving alibis?

Answer. I think so; that is my recollection of the trial; it was upon some technicality of that sort,

Question. Do you think it would be difficult for one or two of a band of twenty or thirty disguised men, charged with committing an outrage, to prove an alibi by the testimony of some of the rest of the same band?

Answer. I do not think it would; I think it could be easily done.

Question. Do you think a man who would belong to one of those Klans, and aid in committing such outrages, would be just such a man as would lie under oath to prove an alibi ?

Answer. I think so; I think he would do almost anything; I think they are bad men, corrupt men.

Question. What are your political sentiments?

Answer. I am a democrat.

Question. What were you during the war?

Answer. At the commencement of the war I was a Union man; I voted the Union ticket until Georgia went out; and when Georgia went out, I went out with her. Question. Did you vote against the ordinance of secession?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. How did you vote upon the reconstruction acts?

Answer. We had two or three of them; I think I voted for reconstruction pretty often; but I do not recollect about that now; I voted for it one time, and perhaps one time I did not.

Question. Were you, beyond the military age during the war?

Answer. No, sir; I was not.

Question. Were you in the army?

Answer. No, sir; I had the appearance of being too old; but I am a much younger man now than you would take me to be.

Question. You were out of the army because you had the appearance of being over military age?

Answer. Well, I had money, and I used it to keep out.

Question. You say the negroes are more divided in their voting now than heretofore? Answer. Yes, sir.

Question.. Why do they seem to be so divided?

Answer. I think it will grow more so all the time, particularly in our country, where negroes are treated as they are; I think the white people will control all their votes within five years, without any intimidation, or fear, or anything else; I think that by kind treatment and proper attention, they will get all their votes.

Question. Do you think that has been the means by which their vote has been divided, by kind treatment?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Do you mean to say there is no intimidation or interference with their voting beyond what should be with a free suffrage?

Answer. I do not think they are a particle more interfered with than I am, not a bit.

Question. You think they were not interfered with at the last election?

Answer. I do not think they were; there may have been some threats out in the country.

Question. You seem to think there are such organizations as the Ku-Klux?

Answer. I do, indeed.

Question. What are they for?

Answer. I cannot tell you that. I have no doubt they are for mischief, though; they do mischief.

Question. Do you mean to say that you do not understand that they are for the purpose of a ecting, the political sentiments of the people?

Answer. No, sir; I do not think it is a political body entirely.

Question. You are a native of this State, and a man of observation; and you must be able to say what you think they are for.

Answer. Perhaps for robbery as much as anything else, or more. That is about tho way I look at it.

Question. What have they been for?

Answer. I cannot tell you.

Question. Am I wrong in thinking, from what you say, that you mean to intimate that they are not now for all the purposes they were heretofore?

Answer. I think not.

Question. What were they for heretofore?

Answer. I think that perhaps at the start it was for good intentions that the organization was got up, and that good men belonged to it.

Question. What good intentions?

Answer. To suppress crimes; they intended to regulate those parties who cannot be brought before courts of justice. But bad men got into it and controlled it.

Question. You mean that originally they were a sort of corrective for disorders arising from the war?

Answer. That is my intention; that was my impression at the time.

Question. You have heard of their outrages?

Answer. O, yes, sir; a great many.

Question. Have you known of any prominent and active democrat being a victim of their discipline or action?

Answer. I have not, only in Walker County some time ago. I have understood since I have come here that a democrat in Walker County was badly whipped.

Question. For what?

Answer. I do not know.

Question. With that exception, have their victims been radicals or Union men? Answer. O, well, they have been mostly negroes, or what we terin radicals. There have been very few white men abused in our county.

Question. Did you ever know of a radical or a negro belonging to the Ku-Klux?
Answer. Never in my life.

Question. How do you account, then, for the fact that

Answer. They may belong to it; I do not know who belongs to it.

+

Question. I am speaking of what you have heard. How do you account for the fact that no negroes or radicals belong to the Ku-Klux, and that, with the single exception you have mentioned, their victims have invariably been radicals or negroes?

Answer. I account for it in this way: in the first place there are but few radicals in our county, and those that are there have not the confidence of these people. And the negroes would not be taken in, because the southern people would not equalize with them.

Question. You mean that the radicals are not good enough to be Ku-Klux?

Answer. I mean that there, are very few of them, and those that are there are of a class of people that they would not take into the organization. There are some good men in the radical party; as good as any in the world.

Question. Do you mean that the Ku-Klux are too pure to take into their organization any radicals?

Answer. No, sir; I do not mean that.

Question. What do you mean?

Answer. I mean that there are very few radicals in our country. Some of them are good men and pure men; men that I respect as much as any in the world, and I believe them to be as honest and upright as any. But I believe the Ku-Klux are generally of a low character of people, and but very few of that class belong to the radical party in our country; and if so, the Ku-Klux would not have confidence enough in them to take them in; that is what I believe.

Question. Then, on the contrary from what I have asked you, the radicals are too good men to be taken into the Ku-Klux?

Answer. Some of them are too good men. There are but few there that are low-down men; in fact, I do not know of any in our community.

Question. Were you a slave-holder before the war?

Answer. Yes, sir, I was; I expect I have owned as many slaves as any man you

ever saw.

Question. And you are now merchandising?

Answer. Yes, sir; I know as much about the negro, I expect, as any man in Georgia. I have owned a great many, and I have traded in them to a large extent. I had the confidence of them before the war, and during the war, and I have it now.

By Mr. SCOFIELD:

Question. Were you what is called a slave-trader?

Answer. Yes, sir; I sold slaves before the war and during the war.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. Were you what we used to call in this country a negro-trader?

Answer. I did pretty smart of that business during the war, but I did more before the war. During the war I had to refugee, and I traded in negroes.

Question. You spoke of some northern man who came down here and staid three months, and expressed his surprise at the hospitality and kindness that had been shown him?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Did he engage in politics?

Answer. I do not think he did.

Question. Was he a democrat or a republican?

Answer. I do not know what he was. His name was Ratway. His brother was engaged in the Cornwall iron-works in Alabama.

Question. Have you not heard a great deal of abuse of the class of people called carpet-baggers?

Answer. Yes, sir; I have heard a great deal of abuse toward carpet-baggers.

Question. Is it not about as stigmatizing a term as you can use toward a man in your country to call him a Yankee?

Answer. I do not think it is; we have a great many Yankees among us.

Question. Is that word ever used to a man, or about him, by his friends; or is it used by his enemies?

Answer. I cannot tell about that. I know it is a name that does not sound well to the ears of southern people; you know that; it is so all through this State, through a portion of Tennessee, and all through the Southern States; it was so before the war. Question. Is it more or less now than it was then?