Imágenes de páginas
PDF
EPUB

new demands upon the taxpayer. The hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) took credit to the late Government because its expenditure had been, generally below the Estimate. Now the Secretary for War has alluded to the numbers of the men recruited for the army, and, although the right hon. Baronet did not apply it in that way, this one item accounts for almost the whole of the savings of the Estimate mentioned by my hon. Friend. The pay offered by the late Government was. not sufficient to attract men to the standard, and the numbers required for the service could not, therefore, be obtained. As no pay was required for those who did not come to the standard, it was easy to declare a saving had been made, and that is the way, I think, in which nearly the whole of the vaunted saving has been made. What has been the result of the measure proposed by the late Secretary of State for War (General Peel)? An increase on the Estimates of about £500,000 on account of an increase of pay of 2d. per day to the soldier, and 1d. per day for re-enlistment. We have had, if I recollect rightly, 26,000 enlistments of ten years men. If we have increased the Estimates and added

to the expenditure we have something to show for the money; and we must look not only to the amount of the expenditure to be provided for, but also to whether that expenditure is justified by the circumstances. If we show that the money has not been squandered or wasted, but has produced that which is necessary for the protection and for the safety of the country, then I think the House of Commons will not blame the Government simply because the expenditure has increased. At this hour, I shall not trespass further on the attention of hon. Members; but after the long debate which has been held I trust no difficulty will be felt in assenting to the

Motion.

Resolution agreed to.

(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty, the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury be authorized to raise any sum of money, not exceeding One Million pounds sterling, by an issue of Exchequer Bonds.',

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH called attention to the fact that we were putting by £1,000,000 this year and every year successively to make up a sinking fund, at the same time that we were borrowing another

£1,000,000 to meet current expenditure. This system of cross accounts, which must be very intricate and costly, was due to the action of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire, who, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, was always taxing his brain to discover some financial novelty, and whose latest act had been to tie the country hand and foot for twenty years to this scheme of a sinking fund, to create which it was necessary to impose taxes otherwise needless upon the country to the extent of £1,000,000 yearly.

Amendment proposed,

To leave out all the words after the words "aupend so much of the payment of the Terminable thorized to," in order to insert the words "susAnnuities created in 1866 till the year 1885 as may amount to the difference of the annual payment made on their account, and of the interest of the £24,000,000 Stock for which they were exchanged, that is to say, a sum of £1,005,000," (Mr. Darby Griffith,) instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Resolution."

MR. THOMSON HANKEY said, he

hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not adopt a proposal which would amount to a reversal of the policy agreed upon in 1866.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE

QUER hoped the hon. Member would not press his Amendment. The matter had been very fully discussed in 1866, and again last year; and the House, he thought, would exhibit great infirmity of purpose if, because of a temporary pressure, it abandoned a course of action which had been deliberately agreed upon. The Amendment, if carried, would necessitate the passing of a new Act to regulate the interest payable on the terminable annuities.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(3.) Resolved, That the principal of all Exchequer Bonds which may be so issued shall be paid months from the date of such Bonds. off at par at any period not exceeding twelve

(4.) Resolved, That the interest of such Exchequer Bonds shall be payable half-yearly, and shall be charged upon and issued out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, or the growing produce thereof.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow. Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

POOR LAW (IRELAND) AMENDMENT BILL. Bill for the amendment of the Law for therelief of the Poor in Ireland by substituting an Union Rating for the present system of rating by Electoral Divisions, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Serjeant BARRY and Major Gavin.

Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 103.]

House adjourned at half
after Eleven o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Tuesday, May 5, 1868.

MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading
Marriage Law (Ireland) Amendment* (89).
Second Reading-Friendly Societies (43).
Report-Medical Practitioners (Colonies) * (78).
Third Reading-Marriages (Frampton Mansel)
(85), and passed.

NEW PEERS INTRODUCED.

The Right Honourable Sir John Trollope, Baronet, having been created Baron Kesteven of Casewick in the County of Lincoln-Was (in the usual Manner) introduced.

Sir Brook William Bridges, Baronet, having been created Baron Fitzwalter of Woodham Walter in the County of Essex -Was (in the usual Manner) introduced.

evils arising from the admission of children under a certain age into these societies had been brought prominently before the public by proceedings in the police courts, from which it appeared that, in some cases, persons insured the lives of the children of burial money in the event of the death of their fellow-lodgers in order to obtain the those insured. The 3rd clause did not in any way interfere with the provisions of the 9th clause of the present Friendly Societies Act-the 18 & 19 Vict. c. 63— by which it was expressly provided that members of Friendly Societies should have the power of insuring the lives of their children for the purpose of securing a sum sufficient to defray the expense of the funeral in the event of their death; and the 15th clause empowered minors to become members. He was not prepared to say that he sought for any interference with this system, if parties chose to carry on that description of business; but, at the same time, he could not refrain from saying that such operations were not contemplated at the time of the passing of the Friendly Societies Act. One of his objects was to carry out what he believed was the true sense of the 18 & 19 Vict., which was merely to recognize the power of members to insure their children's lives in the society to which they themselves belonged. The 5th clause of the Bill was bers from one society to another without intended to prevent the transfer of memtheir express consent. It often happened

that members were transferred from one society to another without being aware that such transfer had been made; and as the collector did not call for subscriptions due to the society to which the member transferred was in the habit of contributing, he found himself out of benefit" in it, while his claim on the new society was often found invalid in consequence of his not having been properly admitted. The Order of the Day for the Second Read- the forfeiture of benefits-a thing which next point to which his Bill referred was ing read.

THE FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. (The Earl of Lichfield.)

(NO. 43.)

SECOND READING.

THE EARL OF LICHFIELD, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that great misunderstanding appeared to have prevailed respecting the 3rd clause of the Bill, petitions having been presented against it from many societies, one of them having 500,000 or 600,000 members, and another upwards of 100,000 members. It appeared to him from a careful perusal of these petitions that the object of the clause had been purposely misrepresented. The

1

frequently occurred in consequence of the
failure of the collector to call for the sub-
scriptions of members. It appeared only
fair that a member should not forfeit his
claims on his society without distinct notice
that forfeiture would take place if arrears
were not paid by a certain time.
Bill next provided the means of a
certain and speedy redress in cases of
dispute between the members of these
societies. The difficulty of obtaining re-
dress in ordinary Friendly Societies was

The

very great; but it was vastly increased in the case of burial societies. The members were often scattered over the whole country, and the redress provided by the rules was arbitration in the place where the society's business was carried on; and where a society had branches in almost every town it was often necessary to go to headquarters in order to obtain redress. The Bill proposed that redress should be had by members proceeding against the collector or agent in the place where the members lived. There was a clause which prevented a society enrolled or registered under the Friendly Societies Acts from being incorporated under the Companies Act, 1862. At present members frequently found that, without their consent, the Friendly Society to which they belonged had become a company, and they thereby lost all the privileges to which they would be entitled under the Friendly Society. He would now call their Lordships' attention to the petitions which had been presented against the Bill. Their Lordships were aware that there were in this country numerous Friendly Societies, admirably conducted, and doing most useful work among the labouring classes. The Odd Fellows and the Foresters numbered respectively 400,000 and 200,000 members. He desired to call their attention to the manner in which the petitions which had been presented against the Bill had been got up. A circular had been issued by the President of the Liver Society, which described the Bill as an attempt to curtail, crush, and destroy Friendly Societies and working men's clubs, and to place them entirely under the control of a paternal Government. Another circular had been sent out by the secretary of a different society, urging its collectors and agents to get up petitions signed by all persons above fourteen years of age, on the allegation that the Government were attempting to set up a system of assurance themselves, and to rob the poor by taking from them the management of their own affairs. In this case the petitions came from societies in which it could not be said that the members had any voice in the management; they were managed by committees composed only of collectors and agents in the different places where the members resided. Three societies which had presented a large number of petitions against the Bill were the Royal Liver, the Victoria Legal, and the United Legal. It appeared from official Returns printed

for the House that, in a considerable number of cases, the expenditure of Friendly Societies amounted to considerably more than the income; but in that list the Liver Society and the Victoria Legal did not appear. However, from inquiries which he made, he found that the income of the Liver was £140,000 a year, the management expenses £53,000, and the funds in hand £117,000. That Society, which was established in 1850, had more than 600,000 members. He would call their Lordships' attention to the fact that the funds in hand were considerably less than one year's income; and all actuaries concurred in stating that any society which had been in existence only half the time of the Society he had just named, and had not a reserved fund of more than one year's income, must inevitably be insolvent. With regard to the Victoria Legal Society, he found that many returns called for with respect to that Society had not been filled up; but, according to the last annual report of the Society, it appeared that the last year's income was £28,431. The expenses and sums paid for burials were placed in one lump sum at £24,140. Thinking that there was something extraordinary in the manner in which the accounts were made out, he referred them to two persons of great experience, who confirmed his conviction that the accounts were clearly inaccurate; and an actuary of great experience had since stated, as the result of his experience, that there was an inaccurate statement in respect to no less a sum than £1,400. The funds in hand belonging to that Society amounted at the present moment to exactly half a year's income. That Society was established in 1843. The other Society petitioning against the Bill had among its honorary representatives a Member of their Lordships' House, who concurred with him in thinking that the expenditure of the Society was extravagant. These three Societies not only petitioned against the Bill, but prayed to be heard against it—a proceeding which simply meant that statements might be made by the various collectors employed by the Societies as to what they considered the importance of the business carried on by the Societies. One of the clauses of the Bill, bearing on all societies alike, was to the effect that in all cases where a person was admitted a member a policy should be given to him, and also a copy of the rules. He found that this clause also had been petitioned against; but he had mentioned the matter to a depu

tation which he had received from the Odd | might add, was meant to give a greater Fellows' Society, and he found that there amount of control to the societies to which could be no practical difficulty in giving he had referred over the small branches such policies. He thought that their Lord- and lodges which formed a portion of the ships would see that it was the right of great whole. It appeared that when the members of these societies to have some- lodges connected with any of those large thing to show what their claim really was affiliated societies refused to comply with upon the society. He knew that it fre- the rules of the central body, although that quently happened that persons who had body might declare those lodges to be no interested themselves for complaining mem- longer connected with it, the responsibility bers found that these persons had nothing still rested with it of providing a certain to prove what their claim upon the society amount of support for some of their memwas, or to show what proceedings should bers under the operation of the general be taken. The next point provided for by rules. He would therefore provide that in the Bill was that the Annual Report, or the event of a lodge being separated from General Statement of the Funds and Effects the main society, under the circumstances required to be made to the Registrar under which he had described, a County Court the Friendly Societies Act of 1855, should Judge might make an order that the inbe made before March, instead of before terest of a member in that lodge should June, in order that more time might be be handed over to the central society, the allowed for taking proceedings, in the event society taking upon itself the responsibilty of any proceedings appearing necessary in of that member's support. He thought consequence of irregularities in the ac- that all the provisions of the Bill were well counts. The Bill also required a detailed considered with reference to the great obstatement of accounts to be made, speci-ject of promoting those habits of frugality fying the sources from which the income was derived. The Bill also provided for an audit of accounts. He was perfectly well aware that great difficulty attached to any action taken with the object of providing for the auditing of the accounts of those societies; and he did not for a moment mean to contend that the Government should take upon itself so great a responsibility as the duty of seeing that their rules were sufficient, and ascertaining from time to time that they were solvent would involve. He was, however, of opinion that the mere publicity which would be given to the state of their affairs by means of the audit provided for by the clause, under the authority of a County Court Judge, would have the best possible effect in the way of warning persons not to joing a society which was shown to be in an unsatisfactory position. He came in the next place to two clauses, the 9th and 10th, which related to affiliated societies, such as the Odd Fellows and the Foresters. The 9th clause had been framed expressly for the purpose of facilitating the operations of those societies, by saving them the trouble and inconvenience which were the consequence of their being obliged to have the rules of their different branches and lodges through--(The Earl of Lichfield). out the country separately certified; but, as he understood there was some objection to the clause on the part of these affiliated societies, he should offer no opposition to its being withdrawn. The 10th clause, he

among the working class the expediency of which was universally recognized. He now asked their Lordships to read that Bill the second time, he having already assented to an appeal that had been made to him to allow it to be referred to a Select Committee. At the same time he must repeat what he had said the other day, that he attached the greatest possible im portance to the Select Committee, if it were appointed, confining itself strictly to the clauses of the Bill, and not going into the general question of Friendly Societies in all its bearings. A subject of such magnitude, and so vitally affecting the interests of the working classes of this country, ought to be fully and searchingly in vestigated; and it would be worse than useless for their Lordships to attempt to do that in a Select Committee. That very wide question could be properly inquired into only through a Royal Commission, having power to send sub-commissioners into all the large towns of the country, in order to obtain on the spot evidence and information for which they must look in vain in a Select Committee.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2^."'

THE EARL OF HARROWBY said, he had been entrusted, for presentation to their Lordships, with a number of petitions emanating from the class of societies on which the noble Earl had commented, but

which he was prevented by the forms of the House from presenting at that stage. It was not for him, without an investigation, to contradict the noble Earl's statements in regard to those societies. No doubt the charges for agency and management of Friendly Societies were often heavy; but, on the other hand, it was stated by the parties, that, when they came to carry on transactions of a very minute character, receiving pence from persons who were scattered over a wide area, a very considerable percentage must be expended on collection. But the point to which he wished chiefly to call the noble Earl's attention was this-the noble Earl told them that the whole question of Friendly Societies required a fuller investigation than it could have before a Select Committee of that House, and that he hoped a Royal Commission, for which he intended to move next year, would be appointed to inquire into the whole subject. There were, he understood, ten Acts of Parliament already in existence on that subject; and he should therefore like to know on what ground the noble Earl now proposed to add an eleventh Act to them before the investigation which he desired had taken place into the whole question.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY said, he thought that very great credit was due to the noble Earl (the Earl of Lichfield) for the interest and trouble he had taken on a subject of vital consequence, he might almost say, to millions of persons in this country. No one was more anxious than he (the Earl of Malmesbury) was to see so important a question placed on a footing satisfactory to the Legislature and the classes who generally constituted the societies. Yet he could not help being struck, like his noble Friend who had last spoken, by an apparent contradiction in the statement of the Mover, who had said that a vast amount of information was still required on that subject, and that that information could be obtained only by means of a Royal Commission. Now, that seemed to be a good reason for postponing, until after a Royal Commission had reported, legislation on a subject, relating to which, as he was informed, there were not ten or eleven, but twenty-four Acts on the Statute Book. He would, therefore, suggest that the noble Earl, for the very reason he himself had given, that having made a very able and ample statement to the House, and thereby brought the subject before the public, he should wait till another year,

[blocks in formation]

LORD TAUNTON asked the Lord President, Whether it is his intention to introduce a Bill to provide that offices given in Grammar Schools shall be subject to such regulations in future as Parliament may lay down? It was not his intention to enter into the merits of the Report on Middle Class Education; but he thought it was impossible for anyone to have read the part of that Report which related to the present state of the endowed grammar schools of this country, which were about 800 in number, without seeing that the time had fully come when, if Parliament intended to do its duty by the education of this country, it ought to insist upon putting those schools on a very different footing from that on which they now stood. There could be no security for the good management of these institutions unless power was placed in the hands of the trustees and visitors to dismiss the masters, unless they showed themselves competent to attract scholars and to conduct the schools in a satisfactory manner; and it was also highly necessary that any appointments that might be made to the masterships of grammar schools should be subject to the future action of Parliament. Many of these masters received salaries of £300 and £400 a-year, with a house, and they were bound to receive the pupils that presented themselves. He was far from bringing any charge against the whole body of masters, but many of them had very few pupils, and some were without a single pupil, and pursued a course which was calculated to deter pupils from coming to their schools. One of the Assistant Commissioners reported that he found a case in which the master of an endowed school had but a single pupil, whose education was by no means what might have been expected. When the Assistant Commissioner hinted to this master that he must have mistaken his vocation, and that it

« AnteriorContinuar »