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was desirable he should retire, he replied, "I do not want pupils. I have £300 a-year, and I will not retire unless on my full salary." And it was doubtful whether anyone could turn him out. The circumstances of the Session were not such as to induce the Government to bring in measures which were likely to be much controverted; but it was important that such a measure should be passed during the present Session, and a Bill of a single clause would be sufficient.

THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH said,

that great weight and importance should be attached to the observations of the noble Lord, who was Chairman of the Commission on Endowed Grammar Schools. These masters enjoyed a kind of freehold position, and the difficulty of legislation to meet the cases referred to by the noble Lord was

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Tuesday, May 5, 1868.

MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-Ordered-Municipal Corporations (Metropolis); Corporation of London; Stockbrokers (Ireland).*

IRELAND-CATTLE PLAGUE.

QUESTION.

MR. GREGORY said, he wished to ask

the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If he will lay before the House the detail of the expenditure of the sum levied over Ireland to meet preliminary expenses in anticipa tion of the cattle plague?

THE EARL OF MAYO said, in reply, that the accounts were nearly completed, and the details would be laid on the Table as soon as possible. A small sum remained in hand which had not been expended.

QUESTION.

increased by the necessity of compensating the masters whose retirement might be thought desirable. He quite concurred in the opinion that no new interests should be created pending legislation on this sub- IRELAND-DEATHS FROM SMALLPOX. ject, and he had been in communication with his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary with a view to the introduction of a Bill to limit the interests of those who might be appointed to offices in endowed grammar schools, so that Parliament might be left free to deal with the matter in the next Session. A measure would be prepared at once, and it would be his duty to lay it upon their Lordships' table as soon as possible.

LORD TAUNTON suggested that the Bill might also be applicable to the appointment of new trustees.

THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH said, that this matter would be considered by the legal gentleman entrusted with the preparation of the Bill.

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beg to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, MR. GREGORY said, he would now Whether he is about to give instructions to the Constabulary in the case of deaths endeavour to procure an inquest to be held, from smallpox, caused by inoculation, to for manslaughter, or for an offence against in order, if possible, to obtain a conviction the Vaccination Act?

THE EARL OF MAYO, in reply, said, stabulary in cases where deaths occurred instructions had been given to the Conhon. Member for Galway to cause an inunder the circumstances referred to by the quest to be held. Those instructions, however were confined to certain localities, with regard to which information had been received. But if it were desired that the instructions should be made general, he had no objecton whatever to that course.

IRELAND-HABEAS CORPUS ACT.

QUESTION.

MR. BAGWELL said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether, considering the present tranquil state of Ireland, he conceives it necessary to keep prisoners arrested under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act any longer in confinement; and, whether he will state to the House the number at present under confinement under the above Act?

THE EARL OF MAYO: Sir, when I reference to the sale of such of Her Mamoved for leave to introduce a Bill for the jesty's ships as are not now required for further extension of the Habeas Corpus the Service, Whether the use of such ships Act there were ninety-six persons in con- might be obtained for Schools or other finement in Ireland under the Lord Lieu- public purposes, subject to such conditions tenant's warrant. I am happy to be able for their preservation, and their return to state that this morning there were only when required, as the Admiralty may pretwenty-three persons in confinement under scribe? the provisions of that Act, and, of those twenty-three, orders for the release of four-ply, that the Admiralty had already in teen have already been made, on condition either that they leave the country or give solvent bail. As the House will see, there is reason to hope that before long any practical consequences of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland will have ceased.

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE

LORD HENRY LENNOX said, in re

many instances given ships for the purposes specified by the hon. Gentleman, and would be glad to do so where this was possible and compatible with the public service. At the same time he must point out that, in many cases, the societies not only asked for the loan of ships, but required that these should be refitted, caulked, and otherwise repaired at very large cost,

ACT, 1867-COMPOUND-HOUSEHOLDERS. for which no provision could be made in the Naval Estimates.

QUESTION.

DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.

QUESTION.

MR. SCHREIBER said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, with reference to his Answer of the 18th of February upon the same subject, When MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, he he will state what recommendations he is would beg to ask Mr. Speaker, Whether prepared to make for the enfranchisement the direct allusions made that evening by of compound-householders in parishes the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) not within existing borough boundaries, to what had taken place in the House of but which might be wholly or in part Lords was in order? added to boroughs," and of whom the Boundary Commissioners report that "they will be precluded from qualifying as voters in the year 1869, unless some special provision is made for their protection?" He had understood the right hon. Gentleman on a former occasion to admit the importance of this question, and to state that it had not escaped the attention of the Government; but, finding no reference to the matter in the Boundary Bill as laid upon the table, he felt it right to ask this question. Order!"]

MR. DISRAELI: Sir, the observations of the hon. Gentleman are quite justified. It was considered expedient that the remedy required should not be included in the Boundary Bill as laid upon the table; but that, when the Measure had gone through Committee, I should, if necessary, propose a clause upon the subject. Of course, it is quite possible that the matter may have previously received the attention of the Committee upon the Bill.

SCHOOL AND TRAINING SHIPS.
QUESTION.

MR. WHALLEY said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, with

MR. SPEAKER: The rule of the House is, that allusion to debates in the other House of Parliament should not be made in this. It would have been competent to the hon. Member to have risen to order, if he had thought fit this evening; but it is scarcely possible that, under all circumstances, the rule can be construed in an absolutely literal manner. declarations have been made by Ministers of the Crown, particularly as affecting the position of this House, exceptions have been made to the strict observance of this particular rule.

BOUNDARY BILL.-QUESTION.

When

MR. HIBBERT said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, When the Boundaries Bill would be brought on?

MR. GATHORNE HARDY said, in reply, that he had expected to proceed with the Boundary Bill on Thursday; but, as that day had been given up to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire for his remaining Resolutions, he feared he should not be able to do so. He would, however, proceed with it on the earliest possible day.

ARMY-RESERVE FORCES.-QUESTION. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether any regulations for the Army Reserve or Militia Reserve Forces have been made under the "Army Reserve Act, 1867," and the "Militia Reserve Act, 1867 ;" whether any instructions with reference to the latter force have been issued to Commanding Officers of Militia Regiments now called out for training; and, whether he will lay such regulations and instructions upon the Table of the House?

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, in reply, that regulations had been made under both Acts. Those regulations would be issued immediately, and laid on the table of the House.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT-DEFEAT OF THE GOVERNMENT ON THE IRISH CHURCH RESOLUTIONS-QUESTION. MR. GLADSTONE: I rise, Sir, to put a Question to the right hon. Gentleman at the head of Her Majesty's Government which will require some explanation; and I will therefore commence by moving the adjournment of the House. I think the justification of that course will appear from the matter which I have to state. I did not expect, when I closed the remarks which I had to make to the House yesterday afternoon, on the subject of the Ministerial Explanations, that it would be my duty to revert to that matter at so early a date. But the character of the debate which took place in this House was unexpectedly altered by a remarkable declaration, withheld from us by the Prime Minister during the lengthened speech which he addressed to us at the commencement of the Sitting, and given in so enigmatical a manner and at such a period that neither my hon. Friends who sit about me, nor I myself, were in a condition to follow him or to comment upon that speech. But even that declaration, enigmatical as it was, does not constitute the whole, or even the main part, of the subject which I wish to bring under the notice of the Government and the House, and with respect to which I am about to put a Question to the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government. I must remind the House briefly of what occurred with regard to an essential portion of the right hon. Gentleman's communication. The right hon. Gentleman told us at the commencement

of the Sitting that the advice Ministers had tendered to the Crown was to dissolve the present Parliament; but that if, for any reason, Her Majesty saw cause to prefer a different course, and to ask the advice of other persons, Her Majesty's Government would place their resignation in Her Majesty's hands. Her Majesty, said the right hon. Gentleman, did not accept their resignation, and she was ready-I am quoting now what I believe to have been his words, but up to this time I have only given the substance of them-" she was ready to dissolve this Parliament as soon as the state of Public Business would permit." I myself, Sirand, I believe, the whole House - distinetly understood the meaning of those words; and I testified, and others did so too in the remarks which they offered, that, according to our view, the advice offered as to an immediate dissolution had not been taken, that the resignation of the Government had not been accepted, and that the condition in which we stood was thisthe Government proposed to carry on the Public Business until after the completion of those portions of business which they had declared to be essential-namely, business having relation to the subject of Reformwhen they should be in a condition to advise Her Majesty to dissolve the present Parliament. The reference to such a dissolution was undoubtedly not open to objection; although, on other grounds, it was my duty to take exception to the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman, and other Members took exception to it likewise with great justice upon other points. One of them, in particular, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton), rightly charged that the right hon. Gentleman, by the mode of his communication to the House, for the first time, I believe, in recent history, certainly within the recollection of the present generation, or, as far as I know, within any other recollection,seemed to make Her Majesty the suggester of the course which was about to be pursued by the Government, instead of the acceptor or rejector of the simple and single advice tendered by them to her, as has been the case on every former occasion. However, feeling the absorbing interest and importance of a great public question, I think I may say for some, if not all of us, who sit on this side of the House, that we were desirous to pass by topics purely political, and in that

noble Friend (the Earl of Malmesbury) stated so clearly as to the position of affairs at this moment. tendered to his Sovereign the resignation of their The Prime Minister, on the part of his Colleagues, Offices on Friday afternoon. Her Majesty took time to consider the matter, and received the Prime Minister again in audience upon Saturday." 3 Hansard, exci. 1690.]

strain the debate was closed. But, at the close of the debate, the right hon. Gentleman gave us, in that enigmatic manner which is so peculiar to him, a most important addition, which was likewise, in fact, an alteration of the speech which he had made, because he signified that Her Majesty had given an unqualified assent Now, Sir, I submit to the House that is a to a dissolution of Parliament, without statement totally different from the one reference to the new or to the old con- made by the right hon. Gentleman. ["No, stituency. Had I had the power of follow- no!"] That is a statement that the ing the right hon. Gentleman, I should Prime Minister went down to Osborne have asked for an explanation of that and tendered the resignation of the Gostatement. I own it excited my suspicion; vernment to the Queen. I do not now inI thought that it meant more than the quire how it was, and why it was, the words were intended at the moment to Duke of Richmond gave that form to his convey, and that it was a sort of cover for statement-I have no doubt in perfect infuture and ulterior designs. But I wish tegrity-because that is a matter which now to illustrate that which occurred at may call for further comment. ["Oh, oh!"] the close of our debate, when none of us No doubt, it is the wish of the hon. Gen who had entered into it were in a condition tlemen who interrupt me that no such to comment on the statement of the right comment should be made; but the duties hon. Gentleman, and when the House, at incumbent on Members of this House are the approach of the inevitable hour of not to be discharged otherwise than in dinner, had sunk to low water mark. The accordance with our deliberate convictions illustration which it appears to have re- and sense of what is right. Sir, as to the ceived from a statement made elsewhere is statement made, what I want to point out really most significant. It signifies not to is this, if I have not made myself clear:me in what other place this statement The right hon. Gentleman said he went was made. I am not going to run across down to Osborne and advised a dissolution, either the letter or the spirit of any of our but if Her Majesty should see fit not to rules-I speak of statements credibly re- accept that advice he tendered his resigported to have been made, it matters not nation. The statement of the Duke of in what place, by responsible Advisers of Richmond yesterday was that the right the Crown; and it is upon this statement hon. Gentleman tendered his resignation that I wish to put a distinct question to on Friday. The noble Duke did not say a Her Majesty's Government-a question word about the right hon. Gentleman havwhich, I trust, will lead, either upon this ing advised a dissolution. That is the first or upon some other occasion, if it should discrepancy I wish to notice, and respectbe requisite, to an answer equally clearing which I wish for information. I want and distinct. It appears that one Member of the Cabinet (the Earl of Malmesbury) made a declaration elsewhere which was in precise concurrence and agreement, so far as I am able to learn or to comprehend it, with the first edition of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. After that had been done, exception was taken to that statement upon grounds essentially similar to part of the objections taken in this House, and a question appears likewise to have been put asking for further information from the Government. In answer to that question the Duke of Richmond is reported to have spoken, and to have touched upon one or two points to which in my remarks I have referred. In the early part of what fell from him, he is reported to have said

to know whether this statement is accurate and correct. But I pass on to a matter equally unintelligible, and I think more weighty and more important-in truth a matter calling for the gravest attention of this House-I will not say now, because that may depend on the Answers which may be given, but probably hereafter. The remainder of the statement is as follows:After the noble Duke announced that Her Majesty had declined the resignation, and that the Government would continue to conduct the public affairs as long as they were able to do so, he is reported to have gone on and spoken as follows:

"And in the event of any difficulties arising, Her Majesty was graciously pleased to state that she would make no objection to a dissolution of Parliament."-[Ibid.]

"I can only recapitulate imperfectly what my The noble Duke then appears to have pro

ceeded to reiterate that important state- | Affairs sits within one of the right hon. ment. I may say I have endeavoured as Gentleman the Home Secretary, and the well as I was able to ascertain whether the latter right hon. Gentleman sits within one report of the noble Duke's observations is of the First Commissioner of Works. I correct. With that object I have applied need not refer to the icy temperature of to one very competent witness, and the the discussion which was raised by the evidence I have received is that it is cor- Foreign Secretary in dealing with the vote rect. Well, then the noble Duke is re- on the Irish Church, nor to the glowing ported to have made these further obser- language in which some of his Colleagues vationsdescribed the glory of the task they had undertaken, nor to the devoted avowal made by the First Commissioner of Works

"It of course will depend upon the state of affairs whether that dissolution shall be a dissolution under the existing constituency, or whether it shall be a dissolution under the new constituency

that he sits on those Benches for the to be formed under the Reform Acts; but Her purpose of defending the Irish EstablishMajesty was graciously pleased to state that she ment, and that he will not sit on them would make no objection to either course being when he can no longer do so for that puradopted by her Advisers whenever they should see pose. But this is a totally different matter. fit to tender to Her Majesty a recommendation It is one respecting a declaration made by on that subject."-[3 Hansard, exci. 1690.] Ministers of the Crown, and purporting to [Cheers.] Now, Sir, in the first place, I hear define the relative positions of the Crown, cheers which I think it material to note the Government, and the House of Comfrom the opposite side, as I presume they mons. In making such a declaration the are an indication of the opinion of the hon. Member of the Government who addresses Gentlemen who utter them that the senti- Parliament speaks for the whole Cabinet; ments expressed by the noble Duke are and to the very least syllable of a stateright and constitutional sentiments. I am ment such as this we are entitled, we are not about to ask the right hon. Gentleman, bound, to ask the Government whether or the Government, whether Her Majesty they adopt the statement of their Colleague? did say she would make no objection to a As to the meaning of the statement itself dissolution, or to any other course being I need say but little. I think it is plain adopted by her Advisers when they should enough. The Duke of Richmond tells us think fit. Sir, a long experience of over that leave for a dissolution had been obthirty years has satisfied this House and tained by the Government beforehand in the country that Her Majesty well deserves anticipation of events, with reference to -if ever any Sovereign deserved-this cases which have not arisen, with refersimple testimony, that she knows and that ence to the entire course of public business; she has ever walked in the lines and path- not simply, though that would be quite ways of the Constitution. It is not for enough-and wholly without precedent-in one moment to be supposed that there is respect of the Irish Church, but in respect the slightest question to be raised on that of every stage of any Bill which may come subject. I gladly echo back the just state- before the House of Commons. He parades ment of the right hon. Gentleman that to this leave before our faces-this leave to the advantage of having acquired a tho- dissolve the House of Commons in case rough knowledge of the principles of the difficulties should arise, that is, in case any Constitution Her Majesty possesses, in ad- of its votes should be displeasing to Her dition, the inestimable advantage of what Majesty's Government. Having stated the he pointedly, and not unjustly, described as meaning of that language, I carefully re"a vast experience of public affairs." Sir, frain at the present moment from going my question is not as to what has taken further. My duty is to make the request place, or to what has not taken place, be--I think a not unreasonable one-that tween the Sovereign and her Ministers; it is simply as to the words purporting to have been spoken by these Ministers themselves. These are words respecting which I wish to know whether they are avowed or disavowed by the right hon. Gentleman for the whole Government. We have heard enough, indeed, of differences in the speeches of Members of the Cabinet. The noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign

this language may either be explicitly adopted or explicitly disavowed. As to what may follow such adoption or disavowal it is perfectly unnecessary for me to speculate; my business is to ascertain the fact. I know that perhaps amid the pressure and distraction of affairs it is possible, though hardly probable, that the right hon. Gentleman has not become acquainted with the exact expressions used in "another place."

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