Mr. BOUTELL. Do you accept the figures spoken of by Mr. Jones and Mr. Kinney, of 30 and 35? Mr. PITKIN. Yes, sir; I do. Mr. BOUTELL. That would bring down the higher class of goods 10 per cent lower than I suggested. Do you think that 30 and 35 per cent would bring in more revenue than putting the commoner grades on the free list and leaving the higher grades at 45? Mr. PITKIN. I think you would get more revenue by putting the commoner grades on the free list. I do not think the American potter could compete with it. Mr. GRIGGS. On the lower grades? Mr. PITKIN. Yes. Mr. GRIGGS. They can not compete with the Europeans? Mr. PITKIN. They have 55 per cent protection now. If you take it all off they can not. Mr. GRIGGS. The free list does not bring in any revenue. Mr. PITKIN. No. Mr. GRIGGS. You mean there would be more importations? Mr. GRIGGS. And more revenue? Mr. PITKIN. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIGGS. I understood Mr. Boutell to be asking his question from the standpoint of higher revenue? Mr. PITKIN. Then I did not understand him. Mr. BOUTELL. I do not think you did. Mr. PITKIN. I think I did understand you, sir. I understood you to ask whether I thought that with cheap goods on the free list and decorated goods reduced 10 per cent it would bring in more revenue. Mr. BOUTELL. Yes. Mr. PITKIN. I do. Mr. BOUTELL. Yes. Mr. GRIGGS. It would bring in more revenue? Mr. PITKIN. More revenue: but I do not think it would be fair to the American potter. Mr. BOUTELL. The final question I asked was whether putting the commoner goods on the free list and keeping the finer goods at 45 per cent would be better than cutting them from 35 and 60 to 30 and 35? Mr. PITKIN. Will you please state that again? Mr. BOUTELL. Your proposition. if I understood you correctly, was that the commoner goods and the higher-priced goods should be reduced from 35 and 60 to 30 and 35? Mr. PITKIN. Yes, sir. Mr. BOUTELL. That is one proposition? Mr. PITKIN. Yes, sir. Mr. BOUTELL. Have you in mind what that would be as a revenue producer? Would that be a better revenue producer than my proposition to put all the cheaper grades on the free list and the higherpriced goods at 45? Mr. PITKIN. I should think it would. Mr. BOUTELL. My proposition would be a better revenue producer than yours? Mr. PITKINS. No, sir: I should think our proposition would be a better revenue producer. Mr. FORDNEY. If by reducing or removing the duty on the lower grades and reducing the duty on the higher grades it would increase our revenue, it would naturally decrease production in the United States, would it not? Mr. PITKIN. Yes, sir. Mr. FORDNEY. And be an injustice to the manufacturer, and the labor that produced it? Mr. PITKIN. I should say so; yes, sir. Mr. FORDNEY. So that it would as a result interfere with either the revenues or the industry, if we lowered it? Mr. PITKIN. If you took it off. Mr. FORDNEY. If we lower the duties on these articles it will either increase imports or seriously interfere with the revenues of the Government? Mr. PITKIN. If you lower it at all? Mr. FORDNEY. Yes. If you remove it from the low grades? Mr. PITKIN. Entirely? Mr. FORDNEY. Entirely, yes, and reduce it in the high grades; it will do one of two things, it will either interfere with the revenue of the Government or increase imports? Mr. PITKIN. It would increase imports, and I do not think it would interfere with the revenue of the Government; but I think it would be an injustice to the American potter to take it off entirely from staple goods, because it is a large item. Mr. FORDNEY. Any increase of imports would interfere with the manufacturer and the labor that produced the goods, on anything, would it not? Mr. PITKIN. I think it would be a good thing to reduce the duty on the higher grade goods, because you and I and every one else that wants to buy a higher grade of goods could buy them at a more reasonable price, because the duty would be less, because those goods are not made in this country. They are not made in this country at all. Mr. FORDNEY. Then the higher grade does not come in competition with that same article made here; do I understand you to say that? Those goods are not made here at all? Mr. PITKIN. There are certain grades not made here at all. Mr. PITKIN. Of the high grades. Mr. FORDNEY. That is all. Mr. LONGWORTH. Could you say about what proportion of the cost of the low-grade goods was labor? Mr. PITKIN. I can not say; I have not the figures and I do not know whether any of our people have the figures or not. Mr. LONGWORTII. Would you say it was a substantial percentage? Mr. PITKIN. As a manufacturer, I would say yes. I am a manufacturer of a certain line of goods, and in that our labor is a considerable proportion of the cost of the goods. Mr. LONGWORTH. You could not say as to the cost of producing the same kind of goods in England? Mr. PITKIN. In England? Mr. LONGWORTH. Yes; as to the cost of the labor. Mr. PITKIN. I do not think it would vary very much in the proportion. Mr. LONGWORTH. That is what I am getting at. Mr. PITKIN. I think the proportion of labor probably in England is about the same that it is here, of the total cost, although I have not any figures on that. Mr. RANDELL. In your opinion what would be the percentage of decrease in the selling price in this country of the low grades if the tariff was entirely removed? Mr. PITKIN. If the tariff was entirely removed? Mr. RANDELL. Yes. Mr. PITKIN. I do not know that I can answer that question right offhand. We could easily furnish you the figures based on our present selling price. It would be a considerable sum. If you take off 55 per cent duty, you can readily see that there would be a very considerable decrease in the selling price. Mr. RANDELL. Of the American product? Mr. PITKIN. Of the imported product. Mr. RANDELL. Would it make any difference with the American product? Mr. PITKIN. You will have to ask the potters that question. They are right here; I should think it would. Mr. RANDELL. It would sound that way? Mr. PITKIN. Providing they should do it. Mr. RANDELL. In your judgment it would have that effect, would it not? Mr. PITKIN. I think they sell white ware pretty close, as it is now. Mr. RANDELL. Then what difference would it make to them? Mr. PITKIN. If they have a protection now of 55 per cent on which we take the geographical protection, the protection of breakages, the protection of freight, and all that sort of thing, which runs up in some cases to 80 or 90 per cent, if we take that protection away from them, I am sure you could see that if they sold goods cheaper in proportion to what they are selling them at now, it would make a great difference. They sell goods now at a great deal less than it costs to import them, and that is the reason I say they do not take advantage of all the protection they have. Mr. RANDELL. If the tariff was taken off, what would be the difference in their selling price? Mr. PITKIN. I can only give an approximation. I should think it would reduce the price of English white ware at least 25 per cent, if not more. Mr. RANDELL. What is the amount of importations of that ware? Mr. PITKIN. In white ware? Mr. RANDELL. Yes. Mr. PITKIN. I can not answer that question, but the figures can be given you. All these figures can be supplied. Mr. BOUTELL. To what extent are American wholesalers or jobbers manufacturing abroad, if any? What interest have they with the foreign manufacturer? Mr. PITKIN. I am not aware that they have any interest. Mr. PITKIN. There may be some who have, but I am not aware of it. American importers having Mr. BOUTELL. Having any interest with foreign manufacturers, or manufacturing themselves, abroad? Mr. PITKIN. Yes. I was thinking of the wholesalers. There are some houses. For instances, Haviland & Co., whose name was up here, have a New York office. Their goods are all manufactured in Limoges. Mr. BOUTELL. Haviland & Co.? Are they Americans or foreigners? Mr. PITKIN. They claim to be Americans. The fathers of the present manufacturers were born in America and went over to France and established a factory over there many years ago. Mr. COCKRAN. Where was that, at Limoges? Mr. PITKIN. Yes, sir: at Limoges. Mr. BOUTELL. When was it? Mr. PITKIN. I can not answer that accurately: in 1830 or 1840. The CHAIRMAN. With a tariff of 60 per cent they have not opened any branch factory here or moved their main factory here, have they? Mr. PITKIN. No, sir. As long as you have raised that question The CHAIRMAN. Any comments you want to make, of course I want you to make them. Mr. PITKIN. Yes. Well, I have assumed that that grade of goods not having been made here, it is difficult to make them, and that the conditions where they are now made are more favorable for making them there. You know that that is true of lots of industries which have been located in one district for one hundred years. The operatives have been trained to do that certain thing which they do, to make certain things, and those things can be made cheaper in those districts than they could be made anywhere also. 66 Mr. BOUTELL. Perhaps I had better make my question a little more scopy," then. I do not know whether you can answer it or not. Mr. PITKIN. I will try. Mr. BOUTELL. Do you know to what extent American manufacturers, American potters, are interested in foreign manufacturing? Mr. PITKIN. I think I ought to say this about the Havilands. I want to be sure to be correct. They live in France. They live there and do not live here. They are essentially French manufacturers. At the present time they are not American citizens-American citizens doing business in France-although they are in a sense. They were Americans. In As to your other question, I think there are some houses doing business on the other side who have interests abroad. I think you could count them on half the fingers of one hand, so far as I know. other words, they are a very scarce article. And another thing I would like to say is that, so far as I know-and I would put $10,000 right down in money on that table on it-that they are as honest and straight as a gun barrel, and that they would not do a dirty thingthey would cut off their hand before they would do it-those same people. Mr. GRIGGS. Put up your money. Mr. PITKIN. I am willing to put it up, sir, and I have got it—not with me. Mr. GRIGGS. I just thought I would call your bluff. [Laughter.] STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM BURGESS, OF TRENTON, N. J. The CHAIRMAN. You are a manufacturer of pottery? Mr. BURGESS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Connected with that industry? Mr. BURGESS. I am connected with the manufacture of pottery: yes, sir. I represent the United States Manufacturing Potteries Association. The CHAIRMAN. You are the same Mr. Burgess whose letter was read here this morning? Mr. BURGESS. Yes, sir; I acknowledge the allegation, although it is ten years old, and will say that I wrote a similar letter within two weeks to a gentleman in New York who is in the importing business. who had some question about what I thought about the English importers, to the same effect, that I have never had any question whatever about the honesty of the English importers or their methods of doing business. But as to the matter of undervaluation in other lines, I think I can illuminate that question somewhat. Perhaps no industry in the United States is more dependent for its existence on a protective tariff than is the pottery industry. The materials in the ground are worth from 25 to 50 cents a ton. When they are prepared in this shape exhibiting specimen], as it comes from the miners, washed and cleaned, and from 60 to 70 per cent thrown out, it is worth from $10 to $12 a ton. Quartz and feldspar rock as they come from the ground have to be washed, calcined, and ground, and when they come to us it is worth from $7 to $12 a ton. Originally they are worth 25 to 50 cents a ton, in the ground. All of that difference represents labor, up to that point. From that point to the crudest kind of pottery that is turned out--we have none here so crude it enhances the value maybe to $50 a ton, and when it comes to an article such as we use ordinarily, it brings it up perhaps to $75 or $80 a ton. When we take some of the ware that has been spoken of, in this white china, it is worth over $200 a ton, and the various grades of stuff that we think we can produce in this country run up to maybe $2.500 a ton, articles of that kind [exhibiting specimen]. I did not get the exact price of this particular article, but I saw some made for Governor Murphy, of New Jersey, at $600 a dozen, that was of a similar design. I simply show you these various decorations to show that china ware of the most beautiful kind can be produced in this country. The CHAIRMAN. Was that at $600 a dozen American ware? Mr. BURGESS. Yes. That was made in Trenton, N. J., at the place that was referred to by Mr. Kinney, in the Lenox factory. Mr. COCKRAN. That is $50 a plate? Mr. BURGESS. Yes, sir. Mr. COCKRAN. How much does that cost abroad, do you suppose? Mr. BURGESS. They charge for their name, and it might cost more over there, but it might cost less. Intrinsically it would cost considerably less. Mr. LONGWORTH. How much would that cost at a jeweler's? Mr. LONGWORTH. Would it be $100 a plate? |
