question of his having an opportunity to have his men manufacture that small glass.

Mr. COCKRAN. How will he keep it out? Let us see if we can reach a consensus of opinion about this. He does not take a gun, does he, and go out and shoot any person who tries to send glass in here? You do not expect that he will keep it out forcibly? The only way he e keep that glass out is by making the price higher through a tariff. That is what you want, is it not?

Mr. FAULKNER. Well, yes.

Mr. COCKRAN. That is what you want. You want this American manufacturer, by reason of that tariff, to be allowed to charge more for his product than he can charge to-day. That is the object for which you want to raise the tariff?

Mr. FAULKNER. You do not seem to understand me.

Mr. COCKRAN. You can answer that question "yes" or "no."
Mr. FAULKNER. Well, no; I do not.

Mr. COCKRAN. You want to increase the rate of the tariff; that means increasing the price?

Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. COCKRAN. And you think that can be done?

Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir; on those small sizes I think it can.

Mr. COCKRAN. If the American manufacturer does not increase the price, how is he going to keep the other man out?

Mr. FAULKNER. Because it will not come in; he can make it and sell it here and compete with the foreign manufacturer.

Mr. COCKRAN. But the effect of the tariff is to put up the price; otherwise it would come in freely.

Mr. FAULKNER. Exactly; they can put up the price, and if he does not put up the price of his product who am I going to buy from? Mr. COCKRAN. What is that?

Mr. FAULKNER. I say, if you put up the tariff, and he does not put up the price of his product, who am I going to buy from? Mr. COCKRAN. Now I see it. see it. Your idea is that you will give the manufacturer the opportunity to charge a larger price, but you do not think he will do it. Is that it?

Mr. FAULKNER. If he does, we will undertake to get our share of it.

Mr. COCKRAN. Well, how? How? How will you do that?

Mr. FAULKNER. The way we get all of our wages by agreement with him.

Mr. COCKRAN. But your wages, as you have stated here, are $720 a

year.

Mr. FAULKNER. Simply because he has been unable to command a fair price for his product.

Mr. COCKRAN. And your idea is that now the manufacturer is in such a condition that he is not making enough profit to give you longer employment or better rates?

Mr. FAULKNER. That is my idea.

Mr. COCKRAN. That is it notwithstanding the fact that he is already levying a tariff to the amount of 13 cents per pound upon one form and 13 cents upon the other form of his glass?

Mr. FAULKNER. That is right, because your schedules are not properly arranged. That is the reason. Your rates are too low on the small brackets. I will stop there. They might be better equalized,

if necessary. That is what I want to bring out. I want to prevent this country from being a dumping ground of that poor glass made in those small sizes that comes across from the other market. Of course no manufacturer can get away from making a heavy percentage of small sizes of coarse, common, poor qualities. I am not speaking now about photographic plates and stuff like that. There is not much of that, anyway. I am speaking of the ordinary, common window glass. There is a certain percentage of that, and it is pretty heavy. They do a very good business in that glass that is of poor quality. That poor quality is disposed of in the main by cutting it into small sizes. Some of it used to be ground and chipped, as they called it; but they can roll it now about as cheaply as we can blow it, and that part of the business is getting away from them. But the point is that they should make more of that, and those people over there should make less of that, and it would be better balanced, because if they make less of the smaller sizes, and there is no place to put it, they would not make quite so much of the larger sizes. Then there would not only be room for the smaller sizes over here, but I believe that it would create a little bit better market for the larger sizes.

Mr. COCKRAN. You will file an additional brief showing how much more duty you want in order to get three weeks' more employment for your men?

Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir; that is exactly what I mean.

Mr. COCKRAN. And that is the most you are looking for?

Mr. FAULKNER. The sense of the whole thing is to get the windowglass workers about three weeks' more work in this country, if we possibly can, without injuring anybody. That is my idea of my way of getting it.

Mr. GRIGGS. Is your idea to reduce the tariff on the larger sizes? Mr. FAULKNER. I have not said so; no sir.

Mr. COCKRAN. He has not said anything as to the larger sizes. Mr. FAULKNER. I believe I can file a brief, which I will be pleased to do for the committee's inspection-I believe it will stand your inspection and I believe it will do just what I want it to do.

Mr. COCKRAN. Would it be satisfactory to you if we should agree to reduce the tariff on the large sizes and increase it on the smaller sizes?

Mr. FAULKNER. I am not here advocating a reduction of the tariff on window glass in any size.

Mr. COCKRAN. In any size?

Mr. FAULKNER. I am not advocating it; but I do advocate a change in the schedules, as I have stated, for the reason that I have stated. Mr. CLARK. Mr. Faulkner, does not your whole difficulty lie in the fact that of recent years people have quit using small window glass to a large extent?

Mr. FAULKNER. To some extent; yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. You can well recollect the time when multitudinous windows were made of 6 by 8 and 8 by 8 glass, and all that, and they nearly all have quit it, have they not?

Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIGGS. A pane 10 by 12 was a big piece of glass in those days. Mr. FAULKNER. A great many of them have stopped using it.

61318-TARIFF-No. 15-08-8

Mr. CLARK. The average window glass put into a house in the United States to-day seems to be about 12 by 20 or 12 by 24. I do not pretend to know the exact size.

Mr. FAULKNER. We will take that as the basis of the argument, sir. Mr. CLARK. That is the very reason the window-glass men have not been all getting rich with this present rate, is it not? The people have quit using what you might call this "scrap" glass?

Mr. FAULKNER. They are using half a million boxes of it that is made over in foreign countries and sent across, and our people are walking the earth without anything to do.

Mr. CLARK. I know, but the fact is that the use of small glass has nearly gone out?

Mr. FAULKNER. Probably not as much of it is used now in proportion to the amount of window glass that was consumed at the time you speak of. But I believe there is just as much small glass used to-day, if not more, estimating it by the foot, than there ever was in the history of this country.

Mr. CLARK. I know, but that is owing to what you call small glass dropping largely into disuse?

Mr. FAULKNER. Well, we will take it from what you say. What was your size?

Mr. CLARK. Six by 8, and 8 by 8, and 8 by 10. You have quit using that, have you not?

Mr. FAULKNER. No, sir; I think it is safe to say that there is more glass used of those sizes to-day than ever before in the history of this country. I can show you what is the matter with the windowglass situation, if you will just turn that around and say that there is less large glass used, less glass that window workers are able to make, in sizes up to 160 and 170 square feet, or even larger. I be lieve there is at least one old, experienced window-glass manufacturer in the room who probably knows more about this business a dozen times over than I do. But I want to say this: The reason for that is that the smaller sizes of plate glass have cut into the sale of window glass, let us say, to such an extent that there is a falling off in the larger sizes that could be made in the window-glass house. There is the great trouble.

Mr. CLARK. Is it not true that they do not use this small glass in building houses any more, except where some man that is building an extraordinary house of some sort or other wants windows put in it different from other people's windows, and he has a lot of these small panes of glass put in, whereas in the four-room house and the six-room house and the eight-room house the people usually have these larger panes of glass?

Mr. FAULKNER. Yes; and the people in this country are building small houses and putting in small windows just as they have always done. They are not doing it in the cities of Washington or New York or Chicago or San Francisco, perhaps, to any large extent; but they are doing it in the outlying districts, especially in the South.

Mr. CLARK. I know; but I happen to live in an outlying district, and that is exactly what does not happen.

Mr. FAULKNER. That is exactly where they sell their stuff, or most of it.

Mr. GRIGGS. I live in the South, and you can not buy glass less than 10 by 12 where I live.

Mr. FAULKNER. I would consider that a small window glass. Mr. DALZELL. You are speaking here to-day, as I understand, for the laboring men of your industry?

Mr. FAULKNER. Only for them.

Mr. DALZELL. Yes; and your observations in Europe, as I understand you, disclosed the fact that wages were less in Europe in your industry than they are over here?

Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir: much less.

Mr. DALZELL. And your idea is that by a reasonable tariff protecting the manufacturer here the importations resulting from those low wages could be substituted for by manufacturers in the home market, and that that would give additional employment to men in your industry. That is your idea, is it not?

Mr. FAULKNER. That is my idea exactly.
Mr. GAINES. May I ask you a question?
Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GAINES. When you were abroad in the interest of the window workers, did you make any observations as to the comparative manner of living of workingmen in Belgium and America in your industry?

Mr. FAULKNER. In a general way; yes. As far as the actual cost of living, the necessaries of life, was concerned, I did not investigate that very thoroughly; but I discovered that the European workmen do not live as the American workmen do in any sense of the word. They can not.

Mr. GAINES. Give me some concrete idea of how they do live. Name some of the differences you noticed.

Mr. FAULKNER. That is true in a great many ways. If you go to their houses, you see the difference in the way their houses are furnished. If you see them on the streets, you see the difference in the way they are clothed and the way their children are clothed. You see the difference in what they eat, the kind of food that they subsist on, and all that sort of thing.

Mr. GAINES. What kind of food do they subsist on?

Mr. FAULKNER. I saw laboring men over there--not window workers, but what they know over there as laboring men-that would not have meat in their house more than once or twice a month, and when they did it was horse meat. They have their horse markets there just the same as we have our beef markets here; the horse sign is hanging out instead of the beef sign.

Mr. GAINES. How about clothing?

Mr. FAULKNER. Their clothing is very poor. In fact, it is hardly worth speaking about, as a rule, among the working people. Another thing that I saw, and that appealed to me as something that might be quite a factor in the condition of laboring men over there, was this: I saw too many girls and women performing labor that men should perform. I saw them carrying loads that a strong man would stagger under. I saw them sweeping the streets, acting as "white wings," and all that sort of thing. I saw them carrying rollers that it takes a big, strong, husky boy from, we will say, at least 13 to 20 or 21 years old to carry. I know lots of men that carry rollers. The girls perform that work over there; and, as I stated, they are employed at a very low wage. They are employed in shoving-in in the flattening houses. They do the work of what is called the shoving

boy here a grown man. They use girls over there for that work. The same is true at the other end of the flattening oven, the taking. off end, taking off the glass from the lehr. They use girls there for that work. Girls dip the glass. All of that is performed by girls, and all of it should be performed by men, as it is in this country. Mr. BONYNGE. Mr. Faulkner, what is your business?

Mr. FAULKNER. Now?

Mr. BONYNGE. Yes.

Mr. FAULKNER. President of the window-glass workers.
Mr. BONYNGE. President of the window-glass workers?

Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir. Formerly I was a window-glass blower. I worked on the bench for twenty-five years.

Mr. BONYNGE. How long have you been president of the association?

Mr. FAULKNER. Four years.

Mr. GRIGGS. These small pieces of glass to which you refer are the pieces of glass which poor people buy to put in their houses, are they not?

Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir; principally.

Mr. GRIGGS. Do you desire to increase your income at the expense of your poor friends throughout the country?

Mr. FAULKNER. What poor friends?

(At this point Mr. Dalzell suggested that the witness move to a position where the stenographer could hear him better.)

Mr. GRIGGS. As I understand, the poor people of the country are the people who buy these small sizes of window glass. Is that true, or not?

Mr. FAULKNER. Why, as a rule, yes; I would suppose so. The rich seem to have the plate glass, and I suppose the poor people have to buy small glass. I do not see any other way out of it.

Mr. GRIGGS. Now, then, I say, you want to put this increased tax on the poor people of the country?

Mr. FAULKNER. No, sir; I do not. crease the price of the product at all. here instead of making it abroad.

It is not my intention to in-
It is my intention to make it

Mr. GRIGGS. You are going to do that without increasing the price? Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIGGS. Simply by increasing the tariff?

Mr. FAULKNER. By raising the duty and keeping it out-keeping it across there where it belongs. There is no need of that glass in this country. If we could not make it, gentlemen, I would not be here. But with factories lying idle all over this country, and men out of employment that are qualified to perform that work, and that glass coming in through the different ports of this country, I say your schedule is not right.

Mr. GRIGGS. Can it be made profitably in this country at the present prices?

Mr. FAULKNER. Glass?

Mr. GRIGGS. Yes; the smaller sizes.

Mr. FAULKNER. If they were to make all small sizes, no; nor in any other country.

Mr. GRIGGS. But can the smaller-sized glass be sold profitably now by the manufacturers of this country?