Mr. COCKRAN. Was there any other capital put in after that, or did you go along Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, of course as we made money we put it into the business. Mr. COCKRAN. I mean there was no outside capital put in after that; was there? Mr. CARNEGIE. I do not remember of any outside. Of course I made a good deal of money. I went abroad and sold bonds for the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, and I made a good deal of money; and that went into the business. Mr. COCKRAN. Could you tell us about how much? Mr. CARNEGIE. No. Mr. COCKRAN. I mean to say; what I want to get at is Mr. CARNEGIE. At various times we put in capital; but it was not in the millions. Mr. COCKRAN. Was it in the hundreds of thousands? Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, yes; I should think it was. Mr. COCKRAN. Could you say how many? Mr. CARNEGIE. I can not. Mr. COCKRAN. Was there altogether $500,000 put in? Mr. CARNEGIE. I hardly think so. I do not think there was that much. Mr. COCKRAN. Would you say $400,000? Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, now, this is a question that I have not thought over for forty years. I can not recall these things; but I will be delighted to tell you. Mr. COCKRAN. We might start, then, I suppose, with the assumption that the capital that you started with was not over $500,000, all told, of every kind? Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, what we started with was not anything like that. Mr. COCKRAN. But I mean that you put in at any time from outside sources? Mr. CARNEGIE. Do you mean during all of my career? Mr. COCKRAN. I mean while you were in the iron business. Well, I will go through all your career; yes. Perhaps that will shorten it. At any time in all your career, while you were in the iron or the steel business, how much capital in the way of cash subscriptions did you put into your business? Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, I could not tell you that; but it was a small amount. I should think half a million dollars would cover it. Mr. COCKRAN. That would cover it all? Mr. CARNEGIE. Up to a certain time. Mr. COCKRAN. Up to what time, Mr. Carnegie? Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, well, now, here again I will give you an estimate, if you like, to the best of my knowledge. Mr. COCKRAN. I will take that if you can not give me anything better. I will take the best you can give me. Mr. CARNEGIE. I put at various times into the business-first we started to build bridges; then we went into the iron business. Mr. COCKRAN. You had $500.000 at some time or other put in. About what time was that? What time could you fix as about the time when your total subscriptions of capital to your enterprise amounted to $500.000? Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, I really could not trust my memory as to that. Mr. COCKRAN. About when? Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, but " about." "About" is Mr. COCKRAN. Did you ever put any more in? I mean, now, of outside capital; or did you ever get any more capital into your business than $500,000 at any time? Mr. CARNEGIE. Do you mean when we organized the steel company? Mr. COCKRAN. I will take any time that you like, Mr. Carnegie, when your memory gets at it. Just take that point. Mr. CARNEGIE. You would have to give me time to go over all the decuments. I am most anxious to give you all these things, but can you go back forty years and tell everything about how much money you had? Mr. COCKRAN. Yes; I can tell every penny I had forty years ago, and it would not take me very long. [Laughter.] Mr. CARNEGIE. Well, I can not; I truly can not. Mr. COCKRAN. I could even tell which pocket I carried it in. [Laughter.] Mr. CARNEGIE. I am totally unable to do it. Mr. COCKRAN. Can you not tell us in round numbers Mr. CARNEGIE. No; I can not. Mr. COCKRAN. You have not let me finish my question yet. Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, I could not tell you. Mr. COCKRAN. Could you tell me within a million or so of how much capital you ever had subscribed to your business? Mr. CARNEGIE. We went on making money. Mr. COCKRAN. Yes; I understand that. Mr. CARNEGIE. Let me show you how it was, and then you will see how impossible it is for me now to recall these things. We went on with bridges. Then we went into iron. Then we concluded to build a blast furnace. That was a time when it was very difficult, because blast furnaces are ticklish things. Then we went on to build more and built up an iron business. Then the bridge works grew out of the profits-I can tell you this principally out of the profits; chiefly out of the profits. Mr. COCKRAN. Mr. Schwab said all the capital was made out of the profits. If there be any misapprehension about this, I want to get the misapprehension removed. Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, Mr. Schwab was not with me then. Mr. COCKRAN. That is the reason I want you now to supplement Mr. Schwab's misapprehension by your own information. Mr. CARNEGIE. But I do not know what Mr. Schwab said. Mr. COCKRAN. Regardless of that, you got $7,500 to start with. Then, we have various contributions from sales of bonds and other sources? Mr. CARNEGIE. Money put in. Mr. COCKRAN. Put into the steel business. Mr. CARNEGIE. Mr. Cockran, I was the capitalist of the concern. Mr. COCKRAN. I understand that. Mr. CARNEGIE. I made some money and put it in. We began in a very small way. I wish I could just take a book and show you. I do not want to make blunders. Mr. COCKRAN. Could you fix the maximum amount beyond which you did not put in money? Mr. CARNEGIE. No; let me tell you. I will give you the process, and it was in very small amounts. I have told you that we began--Mr. COCKRAN. Yes; you began. Mr. CARNEGIE. Then we went into the next venture we made in iron. We kept on in iron and bridges. We put our money back. All the partners were economical. Our finances were always pretty ticklish, and all the money that we made in the business we kept in. We were all very economical. Then it came to the time when I saw that the Bessemer process was a success. Mr. COCKRAN. What time was that, Mr. Carnegie? Mr. CARNEGIE. That I can not tell. Mr. COCKRAN. I mean near it? Mr. CARNEGIE. I have no more idea what that year was, or about the time, than I have Mr. COCKRAN. Was it in the sixties or seventies or what? Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, I can not tell. I would have to think it out. Mr. COCKRAN. Could you tell whether it was in the fifties or the seventies? Mr. CARNEGIE. No. [Laughter.] Really, there is nothing I wish to conceal. I would with pleasure get my young partners The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Cockran, are you not satisfied that you can not get that? Mr. COCKRAN. I am going to get as much as I can, Mr. Chairman. Mr. COCKRAN. Of course you will, Mr. Carnegie. Mr. CARNEGIE. We went into the business, into the steel works. That was a great venture. I got a large number of people to go in. Mr. COCKRAN. About what time was that when you got a large number of people to come in? Mr. CARNEGIE. Do you know when the steel company was started? I do not remember the year. I suppose that does not make any difference. Mr. UNDERWOOD. 1891. Mr. COCKRAN. Oh, no. He means his steel company. Mr. CARNEGIE. Do you know? I do not. I can not remember what year we started the steel works in; but we started them. Mr. COCKRAN. Was it in the seventies or the eighties or the nineties? Could you tell us that or the sixties? Mr. CARNEGIE. I could tell by the fact that steel rails were $75 a ton. Mr. DALZELL. Are you talking now about the building of the Edgar Thomson Steel Works? Mr. CARNEGIE. Yes. Mr. DALZELL. Is that the beginning? Mr. CARNEGIE. Yes. Mr. DALZELL. That was about 1870. Mr. CARNEGIE. Yes-well, Mr. Dalzell says it was about 1870. Mr. COCKRAN. The Edgar Thomson Steel Works were your steel works, practically? Mr. CARNEGIE. Yes, sir. Mr. COCKRAN. With which you were identified? Mr. CARNEGIE. Yes, sir. Mr. COCKRAN. Were they built from the profits earned in the iron company or were they built by the subscription of fresh capital? Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, I got a great many partners to go in there. Mr. COCKRAN. Well, at this time Mr. CARNEGIE. John Edgar Thomson, of the Pennsylvania Railroad, was a partner; James A. Scott was a partner; Mr. David McCandliss, and Mr. John Scott, oh Mr. COCKRAN. Can you remember what the capital of that was, how much actual cash was put into that enterprise? Mr. CARNEGIE. No; upon my word, I can not. But we did not build those works. I should think the blast furnace-I should think two or three million dollars. Mr. COCKRAN. Two or three million dollars? Mr. CARNEGIE. Now, I may be altogether wrong Mr. COCKRAN. They did not exceed $5,000,000, did they? Mr. CARNEGIE. I will not say; I can not. Mr. COCKRAN. Your best impression is two or three million dollars? Mr. CARNEGIE. I think so. Mr. COCKRAN. The Edgar Thomson Steel Company started at that capital. Was there any additional capital put into it, or did it expand itself by its own earnings, by the reinvestment of its earnings? Mr. CARNEGIE. I think the Edgar Thomson Works did. There may have been five or six hundred thousand dollars or something of that kind put in. Mr. COCKRAN. But they were highly successful? Mr. CARNEGIE. They were successful. Mr. COCKRAN. And as the money was earned, after the partners took out what was necessary for their support, the surplus was reinvested and the work expanded? Mr. CARNEGIE. Religiously. The partners were not then millionaires; they had an interest in the firm, but they hoped for it— Mr. COCKRAN. But they lacked for nothing, and they were putting back their surplus earnings into the company? Mr. CARNEGIE. Yes, sir. Mr. COCKRAN. After the Edgar Thomson Works started the Carnegie Iron or Steel Works were started? Mr. CARNEGIE. The Edgar Thomson started, and none of my partners would go into it. Mr. COCKRAN. None of your partners would go into it? Mr. CARNEGIE. No, sir. Mr. COCKRAN. That is, none of your old partners in the iron business? Mr. CARNEGIE. That is what we are talking about. Mr. COCKRAN. Then these other gentlemen, whose names you have mentioned, were not partners? Mr. CARNEGIE. What is that? Mr. COCKRAN. Were they partners? Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, yes. Mr. COCKRAN. Those are the gentlemen I speak of, and I understood you to say that they were not partners. Mr. CARNEGIE. Oh, I never said that. Mr. COCKRAN. Your old partners in the steel company- Mr. CARNEGIE. That was a corporation. Mr. COCKRAN. Yes. It grew under your management and waxed fat, and then you started another one. What form did the extension take? Mr. CARNEGIE. We built more blast furnaces. Mr. COCKRAN. Still under the name of the Edgar Thomson Company? Mr. CARNEGIE. All was under the name of the Edgar Thomson Company, I think. The Union Iron Mills also had blast furnaces. Mr. COCKRAN. Were they part of the Edgar Thomson Company? Mr. CARNEGIE. Not until the consolidation. Mr. COCKRAN. And were the Union Iron Mills-who started the Union Iron Mills? Mr. CARNEGIE. Those were our iron mills. Mr. COCKRAN. Those were iron mills in existence before the Edgar Thomson Company Mr. CARNEGIE. They were the mills we started to make iron. And then we went into blast furnaces and made pig iron. Mr. COCKRAN. You say 66 we." Whom do you mean by "we," the Edgar Thomson Company or the Union Iron Mills? Mr. CARNEGIE. The Edgar Thomson Company was a later development. We went into making steel as a final plunge. Mr. COCKRAN. The Union Iron Mills? Mr. CARNEGIE. My partners would not go in for a time. Finally they were willing to go in, when they saw the success, and then we made the firm of Carnegie Brothers & Co., and that included the steel works and iron works and bridge works-no; not the bridge works; the bridge works was a separate corporation. Mr. COCKRAN. This was the old corporation, as I understand it, that started originally with $7,500, that became the Union Iron Mills and expanded into the manufacture of steel and everything else. Mr. CARNEGIE. They were consolidated. Mr. COCKRAN. They were consolidated with whom? Mr. CARNEGIE. The Edgar Thomson Steel Works, becoming the Carnegie Brothers & Co. Mr. COCKRAN. I say they consolidated with whom? Mr. CARNEGIE. The whole of them; the iron and steel were consolidated. Mr. COCKRAN. Was there any increase of cash capital in this or any cash capital contributed by anybody during the progress of this consolidation? Mr. CARNEGIE. No. Of course the first capital was in the Edgar Thomson Company. Mr. COCKRAN. I understand. Mr. CARNEGIE. And then we consolidated it. Most of these gentlemen died or sold out or were disappointed, and then we bought them out, and we consolidated the iron department-everything we had in iron except the Keystone Bridge Works, which was separate. Then we consolidated the iron with the steel, and when my partners got over their fright and saw that the rash partner was going to be successful they consolidated. |
