us that range anywhere from a third to three times the figures that you have indicated.

I am wondering what do you think accounts for this very wide range of costs attributable to the maintenance of that lift equipment?

Mr. CLINE. Each transit system, I think, has taken a different approach towards maintenance on lifts in recent years; some transit systems have claimed very high maintenance costs. Specifically, what that is due to, I am not sure. I have suspicions that, possibly, the proper level of maintenance was not completed on those lifts. The lifts must be cycled on a regular basis even if there is no malfunction in the lift. Ongoing preventive maintenance can be conducted on them.

I would venture to say that different transit systems have taken a different approach to it and that has resulted in varying degrees of expenses. We, too, have heard of the various expenses.

Mr. MINETA. Would you have any idea how many of those, let's say, roughly about 430-some transit systems across the country that we have what percentage of them are currently providing some kind of paratransit services--maybe not percentages of the numbers, but maybe if you have some absolute numbers of all the transit agencies? Do you have any idea what that might be?

Mr. MROSS. Three quarters, we believe-75 percent or more. Mr. MINETA. How will the Department implement this provision that is in the ADA that refers to the flexible formula provisions surrounding undue financial burden as indicated, or as contained, in the Senate-passed bill? Any idea as to how UMTA would look at that in the implementation of some kind of a flexible formula?

Mr. CLINE. We do not have any idea at this time. We anticipate engaging in the regulatory process, assuming the passage of the bill. Sitting here today, I really could not give any indication how that will proceed.

Mr. MINETA. To what extent has the Department been monitoring the new, much-less-expensive, wheel chair lift designed for use in over-the-road buses which are being used in Denver?

Mr. CLINE. I assume you are referring to the Hubmatic lift that the Denver

Mr. MINETA. Yes, that's correct, John.

Mr. CLINE. We at the Department have not yet monitored that lift mainly because it is a relatively new lift. There are very few of them in use throughout the country. The Hubmatic, as I mentioned, is a German-manufactured lift that currently is installed and maintained, I believe, by Stewart-Stevenson who has, from what I understand, the sole rights for implementation.

The lift, itself, is a very interesting design and substantially dif ferent from other intercity coach lifts. We are, obviously, going to take a look at it in the near future. But I would mention that the usage that it is incurring in Denver is not indicative of what a normal, intercity-type coach would incur. So there will need to be, obviously, further analysis on that lift besides the Denver experi

ence.

Mr. MINETA. Is there any explanation as to why it only costs onethird to one-fifth of the cost of other over-the-road bus lifts?

Mr. CLINE. I had the lift demonstrated for me when I was in Denver. As I mentioned, it was a very interesting design. It appears to have less moving and working parts on it than the other lifts do. That might contribute to its lower cost; the fact that it is a little more simplified.

Mr. MINETA. How adequate is the current policy of accessibility practiced by inter-city bus providers in meeting the needs of the community with disabled citizens.

Mr. TRILLING. It certainly does not provide a level of accessibility compared to what is called for in the ADA. I think the inter-city bus industry has tried to do what it can, but it is, really, just starting to come to grips with the problem and is in its early phases of making accessibility arrangements.

Mr. MINETA. The inter-city bus industry has suggested that the ADA be amended so that they would be treated in the same way that airlines are relative to the accessibility issue. Would you summarize for us the form that the regulations arising from the Air Carrier Access Act will take?

Mr. TRILLING. The air carrier access industry is quite different. There has always been some degree of accessibility in the airline industry, a good degree of accessibility for many. The problem there has been some unfair discrimination and a lot of inconsistency in how those with disabilities are treated when they get on the carriers.

The difference that they cite between what goes on in the airline industry and what would go on in the bus industry is not well-defined. All the regulations that we will be putting in about the airline industry, as far as accessibility goes, are very particular to the kind of aircraft. For large aircraft, we would require more accessible features and for small aircraft, we would require less.

So I am not exactly sure what it is that the bus industry is referring to when they say equal treatment. The situation is quite different as far as the physical constraints of the two different kinds of vehicles.

Mr. MINETA. Thank you very much. Mr. Shuster?

Mr. SHUSTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have a whole series of questions. I will probably run out of time, so if you would, simply, let me know when my time expires then I will, on a second round, continue with my questions.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here today. The Senate Bill requires transit authorities, when they are purchasing new buses for their fleets, to buy lift-equipped buses. I wonder if you could tell us the following factual information concerning bus fleets and costs for public transit. How many transit buses are there in operation? Mr. MROSS. Around 50,000, nationwide.

Mr. SHUSTER. Of these, how many are lift-equipped?

Mr. MROSS. We estimate about 35 percent.

Mr. SHUSTER. A new transit bus, you say, is $155,000?

Mr. MROSS. That's correct.

Mr. SHUSTER. The lift costs

Mr. MROSS. $12,000 to $15,000.

Mr. SHUSTER. The average annual maintenance; is that $2,000? Mr. MROSS. The average annual maintenance cost of a bus orMr. SHUSTER. Of a bus, first.

Mr. MROSS. Of a bus is $32,000.

Mr. SHUSTER. A year?

Mr. MROSS. Yes.

Mr. SHUSTER. The average maintenance cost, per bus, is $32,000 a year. And the increase in that cost with the addition of a lift is what; $2,000?

Mr. MROSS. $2,000; that's correct.

Mr. SHUSTER. What is the average life of a transit bus?

Mr. MROSS. Twelve years or more.

Mr. SHUSTER. Can you estimate the aggregate annual cost to public transit entities to implement the lift requirement?

Mr. MROSS. It is difficult. Our best guess is that it is around $30 million. If the Federal government participates, we would expect, out of the Urban Mass Transportation Administration, that would be $24 million of Federal funds, $6 million of local funds.

Mr. SHUSTER. You are saying $30 a year to implement the lift requirement is the total cost, of which $24 million would be Federal? Mr. MROSS. That's correct.

Mr. MINETA. What are the ridership levels, disability ridership levels? For example, I have heard a story that in Seattle, where they have lift-equipped buses, they average only one person using the lift every other day, per bus. Is that accurate?

Mr. MROSS. Again, that figure, nationally, we are estimating to be around 1,500 to 3,000, daily.

Mr. SHUSTER. 1,500 to 3,000 users daily?

Mr. MROSS. Yes, on a national basis.

Mr. SHUSTER. Isn't there great variability between cities?

Mr. MROSS. Yes.

Mr. SHUSTER. I see people behind you nodding their heads yes when I quoted the Seattle statistic. Can somebody tell me is that an accurate statistic from Seattle?

Mr. CLINE. The Seattle statistic, from 1981 or 1983, is about 0.5 usage per lift.

Mr. SHUSTER. So that is one every other day?

Mr. CLINE. Right.

Mr. SHUSTER. Does that suggest that there is great variability, that there may be, in some cities, much greater use of lifts and in other cities much less use?

Mr. CLINE. Currently, Seattle, based on our information, has the highest usage per lift.

Mr. SHUSTER. Seattle has the highest usage per lift, and it is only .5 per day?

Mr. CLINE. That's correct.

Mr. SHUSTER. That is an incredible statistic, is it not? You are saying that Seattle, which has the highest lift use per bus in the nation, has only one person using the lift every other day? Mr. CLINE. That's correct.

Mr. SHUSTER. Let me move on. The Senate bill also requires private bus companies to purchase new over-the-road coaches within six years for large companies, seven years for small companies. Tell us the following factual information regarding the bus fleets and costs for the private inter-city bus industry? How many over-theroad coaches are in operation?

Mr. TRILLING. There are about 20,000, sir.

Mr. SHUSTER. Of these, how many are currently lift-equipped?
Mr. TRILLING. Only just a handful.

Mr. SHUSTER. Practically zero. What does an over-the-road coach cost, the same $155,000?

Mr. TRILLING. No, it is more expensive; about $225,000.

Mr. SHUSTER. Would the lift be the same for it, $12,000 to $15.000?

Mr. TRILLING. This lift would add anywhere from $15,000 to $35,000 depending on which lift they bought.

Mr. SHUSTER. $15,000 to $35,000?

Mr. TRILLING. Right.

Mr. SHUSTER. Why would they spend more than $15,000, if you can get one on a

Mr. TRILLING. The lift you are referring to, which is the one that is being tested in Denver, has not had heavy over-the-road experience. We don't actually know how well it will fare in an over-theroad environment.

Mr. CLINE. I might also add that there is a substantial difference in the price. Up until recently, before the Hubmatic lift came on the scene, most of the inter-city coach lifts that were available were in the $30,000 to $35,000 range. The Hubmatic lift is substantially cheaper.

Mr. SHUSTER. But that is the one in Denver?

Mr. CLINE. That is the one in Denver and that is the one that is anywhere from $12,000 to $15,000.

Mr. SHUSTER. It is not proven out yet, either?

Mr. CLINE. No, it hasn't.

Mr. SHUSTER. So it is speculative on that. The average annual maintenance cost of an over-the-road coach?

Mr. TRILLING. For the coach, itself, we do not have any statistics. The government does not collect that kind of data.

Mr. SHUSTER. Surely Greyhound or somebody can provide us with those statistics later on today.

Mr. TRILLING. Surely.

Mr. SHUSTER. How much does that cost increase with the addition of a lift?

Mr. TRILLING. It ranges from $1,000 to $3,000 a year per bus.

Mr. SHUSTER. So is $2,000 a good figure?

Mr. TRILLING. Yes, as a mean.

Mr. SHUSTER. What is an average life of an over-the-road motor coach?

Mr. TRILLING. They very often last ten years, but sometimes Greyhound will sell them off at an earlier point.

Mr. SHUSTER. Of course, it is related to mileage.

Mr. TRILLING. Yes; but ten years is a reasonable number to use. Mr. SHUSTER. Can you estimate what the aggregate annual cost would be to the private inter-city bus industry if the lift requirement was implemented?

Mr. TRILLING. It could be in the range of 50 million to 130 million, and that does not get into the area of displaced seats or displaced cargo space and the lost revenue attributable to that.

Mr. SHUSTER. Do I understand correctly, that a lift on an intercity bus would require displacing two seats?

Mr. TRILLING. It could.

Mr. SHUSTER. Two to three seats?

Mr. TRILLING. It depends on the technology.
Mr. SHUSTER. What is it today?

Mr. TRILLING. I would say two seats or three seats is a good

number to use.

Mr. SHUSTER. Would this act also require the restroom be accessible? There is somebody behind you shaking their head no.

Mr. TRILLING. It is not implemented yet. The accessible lavoratories will become part of something that is decided later on when they determine whether the technology is available to do so.

Mr. SHUSTER. So the lavatory, the restroom, is a question mark? It is not excluded, nor is it included, at this point?

Mr. TRILLING. Right; that is one of the reasons it is so difficult to estimate the cost.

Mr. SHUSTER. So that is another potential cost. In addition to the lift requirement, the Senate bill requires transit authorities to provide comparable paratransit. Could you tell us the following factual information regarding paratransit service and cost: what percentage of transit authorities provide some level of paratransit service? Mr. MROSS. We are estimating, again, about 75 percent of them do, either directly or under contract.

Mr. SHUSTER. Let me back up a minute. When I was talking about over-the-road inter-city motor coaches, the figures you gave me were of 20,000 in operation. Does that include both scheduled and charter bus?

Mr. TRILLING. Yes, it does.

Mr. SHUSTER. Back on the paratransit. Do most of the operators also provide some level of fixed-route mainline service which is accessible?

Mr. MROSS. Most do, yes.

Mr. SHUSTER. What is the average cost per ride to provide paratransit service?

Mr. MROSS. The average cost per ride is a little over $6.00, but we might caution that there is a wide variation.

Mr. SHUSTER. Let's look at the paratransit requirements. Paratransit must provide a comparable level of service to the fixedroute system. What is comparable in terms of the service-area response time? How do you define comparable?

Mr. MROSS. It would be comparable to the mainline service.

Mr. SHUSTER. So if a bus comes every twenty minutes along a route, then I should expect a van to pick me up every twenty minutes?

Mr. MROSS. Yes.

Mr. SHUSTER. Is that reasonable?

Mr. MROSS. To make a distinction between, as it is now, of a wait of sometimes twenty-four hours.

Mr. SHUSTER. You say twenty-four hours?

Mr. MROSS. It might be.

Mr. SHUSTER. Pre-notification?

Mr. MROSS. Right.

Mr. SHUSTER. Under the law, you are saying that paratransit must be comparable. So, if there is bus service every twenty minutes along a route, that means that the law requires that there be