tries of agricultural products have increased by 71 percent since 1934 and that our exports during the same period of agricultural products to the trade-agreement countries fell to 90 percent of what they had been in 1934.

Does that indicate that the work has been successfully administered in accordance with the promises made in the act?

Secretary HULL. The Congressman would imply that all of those were competitive imports, whereas I am sure the Congressman knows they were not, as he knows that out of perhaps $1,600,000,000 of socalled agricultural imports all but $150,000,000 are either noncompetitive or are composed of certain commodities, like wool and hides, that we don't produce enough of, and yet those kinds of figures are bandied around here with apparent seriousness, as though they meant some terrible situation.

Mr. GEARHART. Do you consider sugar as one of those items? Secretary HULL. It certainly is one of the items that we import because we don't produce enough at home.

Mr. GEARHART. But you will admit that with an adequate tariff we could raise all the sugar we need in the United States.

Secretary HULL. Oh, well, that is what we were talking about when we got slipped up on this war. If we had more people thinking about the international situation instead of such ideas as that we probably wouldn't be in the fix we are in.

Mr. GEARHART. And with your very broad and generous give-away Santa Claus attitude you would put every sugar grower in the United States out of business in order to give the business to Cuba and the other countries on the other side of the world.

Secretary HULL. That is too old and fossilized to even take notice of. Mr. GEARHART. I am glad you took notice to that extent, anyway. I will just finish this tabulation. It is good reading for those of us who have an inclination on our part to appraise the reciprocal trade-agreement administration to ascertain whether or not it has achieved its promised objective.

Secretary HULL. Would the gentleman mind informing me for whom else he speaks besides himself on that point?

Mr. GEARHART. I will tell you right now I speak for 325.000 Americans that are very much interested in this program, and I also speak for 325,000 Americans that you have cost millions and millions of dollars every year to come back and fight the reciprocal trade agreements before your Punch and Judy show called the Committee on Reciprocity Information.

Secretary HULL. That is the gentleman's information.

Mr. GEARHART. There has been a steady stream of Californians back to Washington, to come here and protest against the legislation, and it costs us millions of dollars to fight those things-far more than it ever cost us to go back here and ask the Ways and Means Committee to deal justly with us on tariff bills.

Secretary HULL. I thought the gentleman was tending to speak for somebody in the Government. I know, from personal experience, that now and then, some Congressmen claim that they speak for all the men, women, and children, and the livestock, and other domestic animals in their districts.

Mr. GEARHART. You were a Member of this House for 22 years. You ought to know, Mr. Hull.

Secretary HULL. I didn't make any such claims as that, seriously. Mr. GEARHART. All right, now. Let's take the imports of agricultural products from non-trade-agreement countries. We find that since 1934 the imports into the United States have increased by 33 percent. Now let's look at the exports from the United States to the countries in that classification, and we find that the exports have fallen off 53 percent from 1934 of what they had been in 1934. Now again I ask you, do you think that is proof that the promised objective set forth in the Reciprocal Trade Agreement Act itself has been achieved?

Secretary HULL. Certainly the gentleman knows that I stated this morning that we received decidedly more advantages from the concessions we had secured for agriculture-many times more-than the concessions we gave, and the results of those concessions. I stand by that statement, and I have no disposition to consume the time of everybody else here in something that perhaps only you are interested in. Mr. GEARHART. All right, now. Let's get on to another subject. I want to talk about the most-favored-nation treatment generalizations which the State Department has indulged in in its administration of the so-called Reciprocal Trade Agreement Act.

Secretary HULL. If you will allow me, I had a talk with my good friend Mr. Woodruff on that subject this morning, and I thought we agreed to pass the details of that up to some of our lawyers and others here who are waiting.

Mr. GEARHART. Then I will ask some very general questions, and I will not ask you to pass upon the legality of it without consideration. We generalize that is, the State Department through the President generalizes the tariff reductions of every agreement to every nation, to every one of the 109 customs units of the world, with the 1 exception of Germany. Is that true?

Secretary HULL. Germany is the principal exception, in any event. Mr. GEARHART. Well, as a matter of fact, isn't that the only exception at the present time, excluding, of course, the nations that are at war with us?

Secretary HULL. Since the beginning of the war that is probably the only exception.

Mr. GEARHART. All right. One of the nations that you have generalized all of these tariff cuts to is Japan. Is that not true?

Secretary HULL. Yes; I have heard of your discussion of that. Mr. GEARHART. And Japan has not extended to us any concessions whatsoever in her own markets; isn't that true?

Secretary HULL. Japan extended the same favored-nation policy to us that we did to other countries, including her.

Mr. GEARHART. And the result of it is, Japan has got every concession under this application of the most-favored-nation treatment principle in the American markets that every nation that made a treaty with us secured, and never gave a concession in her own markets whatsoever as a consideration or a return.

Secretary HULL. As I say, she gave the same favored-nation treatment that we gave her. In the first place, what she may have received, if you take that by itself, would not amount to over 2 or 3 percent of the volume of trade involved. In the second place, we had a eommercial treaty of long years' standing with Japan which obligated

us, until we gave notice and rescinded it, to give her equal treatment with other countries.

Mr. GEARHART. The result of that is that Japan has got all the benefits in our market and given none in her own. Stated in other words, she has jumped on the gravy wagon and never paid a nickel for the ride.

Secretary HULL. Well, that is your interpretation of the operation of an international economic policy among all the nations. As I say, the amount, whatever it was, was almost nominal, being probably 2 or 3 percent. In the second place, under a treaty which we did not negotiate, we were obliged to treat her with equality on that point. Mr. GEARHART. Did you ever approach Japan with the idea of opening negotiations with her?

Secretary HULL. One of the earlier approaches we made to her was to give her notice that we would abandon the treaty of commerce we had with her.

Mr. GEARHART. That came just a short time ago, when war was imminent. Isn't that true?

Secretary HULL. It was some time before the war.

Mr. GEARHART. But, as a matter of fact, did you approach Japan? Did you suggest negotiations prior to that time?

Secretary HULL. We informed all nations, without particular reference, what our policy was, and we invited and urged all nations to espouse that general policy so far, at least, as its principle was concerned. We strove, in fact, to induce the principal nations of Europe and this hemisphere to get behind this liberal commercial policy many years before the war, so that they would be a powerful force, not only for economic security but for the preservation of peace, and we did not try to dodge or sidestep anybody. We were striving to preserve peace, and we have nothing to explain or apologize for in the least for our course in every respect as it relates to the administration of this act.

Mr. GEARHART. But the only reply you got from Japan was, in substance, "Excuse, please!"

Secretary HULL. I told you everything I know about it.

Mr. GEARHART. Now, let's consider the trade agreement negotiated with Venezuela. You lowered the tariff on petroleum in that agreement, did you not?

Secretary HULL. Well, I am not mad about that. Are you? I would think you would be.

Mr. GEARHART. That isn't what makes me mad. But as soon as you lowered the tariff on petroleum from Venezuela, she put an export tariff for the same amount on the other end, which had the effect of translating our American customs receipts into Venezuelan customs receipts, didn't it?

Secretary HULL. I have the facts here, and when we come to consider the details, I am going to let Dr. Sayre or Mr. Edminster take that up with you.

The fact is, I think you have just heard the Virginia Congressman speak about the scarcity of many materials in the future, and, with this war on and conditions as they are in relation to oil and gasoline, I am really surprised that a Congressman would take up that sort of question and undertake to start an argument.

Mr. GEARHART. I am pointing out to you that I am not talking about the lowering of the tariff in the agreement on petroleum. The thing that displeases me is the fact that Venezuela immediately put on an export tariff for the same amount. In other words, she just transferred, by that arrangement with us, the money out of our Treasury into the treasury of Venezuela. In other words, the barrier of the tariff was not removed by the agreement; the barrier of the tariff was merely put on by Venezuela and the Venezuelan treasury got the money we used to put into our own Treasury. Is that your idea of reciprocity?

Secretary HULL. The Congressman will find that in all our relations. with these South American countries they have been substantially more generous to us than we really might have expected or hoped for.

Mr. GEARHART. If they have been more generous to us it is not reflected in the figures. The imports are all very much greater than the exports, on every item.

Now, as a matter of fact, have you not encountered that practice a great many times in your negotiation with the 27 countries with which we have agreements now?

Secretary HULL. I don't think we have, more than once or twice, and we have found many ways to circumvent that as we went along. The Congressman assumes that everything, every detail, works just exactly to our notion and to our desire. We have our troubles. We have tremendous troubles as we plod along with the development of this policy. But in the end, the policy of fair play and fair dealing is practiced by the nations that are parties to these agreements; when any slight discrepancy, that is not just to the notion of one side or the other, arises as they go along, I have not seen where there has been a failure to iron out everything to the mutual advantage and satisfaction of all concerned, in any of those particular phases.

Mr. GEARHART. Now, as a matter of fact, practically every country that we have negotiated a trade agreement with has immediately thereafter indulged in maneuvers which were calculated to impose discriminations upon us to prevent us from availing ourselves of the tariff concessions they granted. Is that not true?

Secretary HULL. I don't think so. I haven't heard of it, except from you.

Mr. GEARHART. All right. Hasn't nearly every one of the countries imposed quota systems on us, and limited the quantum of our importations from those countries under the new tariffs to something comparable to what they had been before?

Secretary HULL. As I said, we have in most all instances been able to secure good faith on the part of each country in carrying out our trade agreements.

Mr. GEARHART. And hasn't each country practically adopted a system of licensing to individual importers which has made it impossible for our importers to avail themselves of the concessions they granted us in their agreements?

Secretary HULL. No. You are getting back now to the old prehistoric line of tariff stuff.

Mr. GEARHART. I don't know that I am getting back to that old stuff. I think I am pretty modern on that.

Secretary HULL. All those things were practiced in the past.

But wherever we have made an agreement and a nation has agreed to refrain from these various methods of discrimination, we have been, I think, unusually successful in securing the observance of such agree

ments.

Mr. GEARHART. Now, isn't this a fact: Hasn't each one of these countries that I am about to read the list of, and in the percentage that I will name in respect to each, depreciated its currency after it entered into a trade agreement with the United States for the purpose of defeating the concession they granted to us? France depreciated her currency 66 percent; Belgium, 29 percent; Switzerland, 31 percent; the Netherlands, 22 percent; United Kingdom, 17 percent; Finland, 9 percent; Sweden, 6 percent. And that was as of 1939. Many of these same countries have depreciated their currency further since these figures were supplied. Isn't that true?

Secretary HULL. I have nothing on that phase. Of course, they have all been affected by war for several years.

Mr. GEARHART. I am not talking about the last 2 years. omitting those years.

I am

Secretary HULL. We have nothing like that in our records, sir. Mr. GEARHART. Haven't other countries, in order to prevent us from gaining equal access to their markets, even in accordance with the concessions they granted us, established systems of multiple tariffs, one set of tariffs on the most-favored-nation basis, another set of tariffs on another classification, and the third these multiple tariffs?

Secretary HULL. That is another of those methods of discrimination which used to be in vogue everywhere, but I keep on repeating that under the operation of our agreements with these countries we have been exceptionally successful in obtaining the observance of their commitments with respect to all of these kinds of discrimination.

Mr. GEARHART. And to the honor of the United States, can't we say that we never indulged in any of these practices in relation to the world, and especially in relation to those with whom we entered into trade agreements?

Secretary HULL. I wouldn't want to go back too far in that sort of thing.

Mr. GEARHART. I am talking about the administration of the Trade Agreements Act beginning in 1934, continuing down to 1940, when the abnormal war conditions seized the world.

Secretary HULL. We, of course, have striven as best we were able to carry on in good faith all of our commitments.

Mr. GEARHART. Well, in view of the fact that we have all been doing it, doing it systematically and with a purpose, is there any wonder that a great many people are calling us "Uncle Sap"?

Secretary HULL. They may call a certain segment of us "Uncle Sap," but I don't think they get around to all of us on that subject. Mr. GEARHART. I never found a way of escaping responsibility for what we the people all do together.

Secretary HULL. I never take myself that seriously.

Mr. GEARHART. Now, as a matter of fact, we have never had a high tariff, have we?

Secretary HULL. It is according to what you call one.

Mr. GEARHART. Well, of course, a high tariff or a low tariff is a question of relativity, isn't it?