By Mr. BLAIR: Question. Do you know the condition of those States through which you traveled, n regard to the execution of the laws-whether those States are quiet, &c.? Answer. Where I went is peaceable, and I was about as little disturbed as I ever was in this country, or anywhere else. I walked out in Charleston at 11 o'clock at night, to the house of a friend, and came back without being disturbed. At Mobile I went at 8 o'clock at night to the house of Admiral Semmes, and remained there until 11 o'clock, when I returned to my room, and I had no trouble. At hotels I had no difficulty. At the same time, it is proper to say that I found a great deal of irritation and dissatisfaction of a political nature through the entire South, which, in spite of a desire on my part to avoid that subject, would obtrude itself; it seemed to overwhelm their minds-to be ever present. They were dissatisfied with the way they had been treated by the Government; but there was nothing except an irritation; they would talk about it. By Mr. VAN TRUMP: Question. Was there any evidence of violence on their part? Answer. On the contrary, they all disclaimed that; their conversations would indicate that they regarded the thing as almost insufferable, and yet they would say they would submit. Question. How did you find affairs in South Carolina; were they not, as you have observed, almost insufferable? Answer. If the conversations that I heard were true, the condition of the country was almost insufferable. I was present at the meeting in Charleston where they repudiated the sterling bonds. I saw old gentlemen, persons apparently with plenty of property, men who I afterward found to be men of wealth, going on as if they were in a disturbed situation, and the time had come for them to save what little they had. I must admit that, on close examination, I found them a little more scared than the facts justified. Question. In regard to what? Answer. In regard to their taxes; it was not so bad as they thought; it did not take everything. Question. Did you look at the rates of taxation? Answer. I nquired into their valuations, into their rates of taxation, and compared them with the same in Cincinnati. Question. Did you not find great discrepancy in the estimates of values? Answer. They claimed that their assessments were really higher than the value of their property. In fact, I can state that several pieces of property were offered to me at from two to three thousand dollars less than they were appraised at on the tax list. And one piece of property was sold at auction, while I was in Charleston, for $10,000, that was put down on the tax list for $13,700, I think. Question. At what time were you in South Carolina? Answer. I left Cincinnati on the 15th of March, and I suppose I arrived there in South Carolina in the first part of April. Question. There were no violations of the peace, or anything of that kind, while you were there? Answer. Nothing at all of that kind. By Mr. BLAIR : Question. What did you gather, from your conversation generally with all the persons with whom you came in contact in the several States which you visited, as to the condition of those States in reference to obedience to the law and peace and quiet? Answer. I believe there is not the slightest intention down there to go back into any war or rebellion, or anything of the kind. Not one only, but a great many, of the regular soldiers of the confederate army said to me very clearly, and in a way that I cannot help being satisfied they spoke their sincere minds, that all thoughts of that kind had entirely disappeared from them; that they could not be kicked into it again; that the general Government might do what it pleased, but it could not kick them into a rebellion any more. They seemed to think that the condition was bad enough to drive any set of men into war, but they were not disposed to do it, and would not do it. It looked to me about this way, to use as a comparison a medical illustration: They looked to me like a people that are sound in their vital parts, but their blood is pretty badly irritated by some cause or other, and they were breaking out in spots here and there; if they could only get these political asperities and these political irritations from their mind, they would be better. In other words, as I said to several of them, if they would only take their spectacles that had blue glasses in them off their noses-spectacles that made everything look blue-I thought it would make things appear differently to them. By Mr. VAN TRUMP: Question. Is it not in fact very blue times down there? Answer. Not so bad as they think. I think the South, both black and white, is settling down into a comfortable social condition. There are peculiar circumstances coöperating there-the low prices of cotton, together with the law passed by Congress, which law was the great topic of conversation down South. Take one off or the other, and they would feel better." If they got a better price for their cotton, they would not think half so badly of congressional legislation, or if there had been no legislation they would not think so badly of the low price of cotton. But the two together make them pretty sore. By Mr. STEVENSON: Question. Did they attribute the low price of cotton to congressional legislation? Answer. No, sir; they did not do that. Question. But they mixed them up in their minds? Answer. They did some; yes. By the CHAIRMAN : Question. What is your occupation, doctor? Answer. I am not a doctor. Question. I inferred from your medical comparison that you were a doctor by profession. Answer. No, sir; I merely used it as an illustration. I used to be a merchant, but now I am living on a small country place. Question. You went out there as correspondent for a newspaper? Answer. I went out there as a correspondent for the Cincinnati Commercial, and also intended to write something for the Social Science Journal. Question. Your travels there were to enable you to obtain information to write a treatise on social science? Answer. Yes, sir; the object in the first place was to get an idea of the general condition of the blacks and whites, and the effect of the two races upon each other. Question. And all that information which you then obtained we will get in your book, if it is ever published? Answer. Yes, sir; if it is ever translated. By Mr. STEVENSON: Question. You did not go into the districts alleged to be in open violence? Answer. No, sir. Question. You did not go into Spartanburg, or Laurens County, or any other county in South Carolina, where there are said to be violations of the law; or into Rutherford County, North Carolina? Answer. I did not go into North Carolina at all. Question. Did you go into Greene County, Alabama? Answer. Not that I know of; I went from Montgomery to New Orleans, by way of Mobile, and then came up through Mississippi. By the CHAIRMAN: Question. You spoke of calling upon democratic editors; did you confine your visits exclusively to the editors of one political party? Answer. There were no editors of the other party down there; I found some of the Germans a little inclined to republicanism. I was very anxious to get their ideas, for I am a native of Germany, and I would seek them out everywhere I could find them, because I believed that their minds were freer from the influences that were acting upon the minds of others. They had very seldom held slaves; they had lost no slaves, and, consequently, were in a different state of mind, as I found right away. I visited them, therefore, and compared what they stated to me with what I had heard from others. Question. Were the three most prominent men from whom you derived this information Alexander H. Stephens, Herschel V. Johnson, and Robert Toombs ? Answer. Yes, sir; I also went to see Mr. Trenholm, in Charleston, and Mr. Semmes, in Mobile. WASHINGTON, D. C., June 27, 1871. N. B. FORREST sworn and examined. By the CHAIRMAN: Question. Where is your residence? Answer. My residence is in Memphis, Tennessee. Question. In what portion of the country has your business taken you within the last year or eighteen months? Answer. Mostly between Memphis, Tennessee, and Selma, Alabama; that is, in a southeast direction from Memphis; I am on that line most of the time. Question. In what business have you been engaged? Answer. I am president of two railroads that we are trying to build in that country; they are now consolidated, but have been two up to within the last few days. Question. Has your business brought you in contact, to a large extent, with the people of the country through which your road passes? Answer. Yes, sir, it has. Question. We desire to ascertain the manner in which the laws are executed in the Southern States, and the security there enjoyed for person and property. So far as your observation enables you to speak, will you state what are the facts in that respect? Answer. So far as I know, I have seen nothing that prevented the law from being executed; I have not seen anything at all to prevent the laws from being executed. Question. Do you know anything of any combinations of men for the purpose either of violating the law, or preventing the execution of the law? Answer. I do not. Question. I have observed in one of the Western papers an account of an interview purporting to have been had with you in 1868, in which you are reported to have spoken of the organization of what was called the Ku-Klux in Tennessee, their operations, their constitution, the numbers of the organization; and also a correction in one or two particulars afterward made by you of the facts stated in that interview. You recollect the article to which I refer? Answer. Yes, sir. Question. Upon what information did you make the statement in regard to the organization and constitution of the Ku-Klux in Tennessee? Answer. Well, sir, I had but very little conversation with that party. By Mr. VAN TRUMP : Question. Do you mean with the reporter? Answer. With the reporter. He misrepresented me almost entirely. When he came to see me he was introduced to me by another gentleman. I was in my office, suffering with a sick headache, to which I am subject at times, so that I was disqualified from doing anything. I was just going to my residence, and I said to him that I had nothing to say. That was the most of the conversation that occurred betwixt us. I remember talking to him may be three or four minutes. He asked me if there was an organization in Tennessee, and I told him that it was reported that there was. That, I think, was about the conversation that we had in regard to the organization. So far as the numbers were concerned I made no statement. By the CHAIRMAN : Question. I will call your attention specifically to the report of the interview, as reported in the Cincinnati Commercial of Tuesday, September 1, 1868; also to a letter in the paper, dated Memphis, September 3, and published in the paper of September 6, the letter purporting to have been written by yourself. In the interview, as reported in the paper of the 1st of September, these sentences occur: "In the event of Governor Brownlow's calling out the militia, do you think there will be any resistance offered to their acts?' I asked. "That will depend upon circumstances. If the militia are simply called out, and do not interfere with or molest any one, I do not think there will be any fight. If, on the contrary, they do what I believe they will do, commit outrages, or even one outrage, upon the people, they and Mr. Brownlow's government will be swept out of existence; not a radical will be left alive. If the militia are called out, we cannot but look upon it as a declaration of war, because Mr. Brownlow has already issued his proclamation directing them to shoot down the Ku-Klux wherever they find them, and he calls Southern men Ku-Klux.' Why, General, we people up North have regarded the Ku-Klux Klan as an organization which existed only in the frightened imaginations of a few politicians.' Well, sir, there is such an organization, not only in Tennessee, but all over the South, and its numbers have not been exaggerated.' "What are its numbers, General?'. 'In Tennessee there are over 40,000; in all the Southern States they number about 550,000 men."" Is there any other portion of that statement incorrect than the portion to which you called attention in your letter? Answer. Well, sir, the whole statement is wrong; he did not give anything as it took place. So far as numbers were concerned, I knew nothing about the numbers of the organization. It was reported that there was such an organization in Tennessee, in fact throughout the United States; but I knew nothing about its operations. Question I will read your correction on that point in the letter of the 3d of September. In that letter you say: "I said it was reported, and I believed the report, that there are 40,000 Ku-Klux in Tennessee; and I believe the organization stronger in other States. I meant to imply, when I said that the Ku-Klux recognized the Federal Government, that they would obey all State laws. They recognize all laws, and will obey them, so I have been informed, in protecting peaceable citizens from oppression from any quarter." Is that the correction which you make of the statement that I read to you in regard to your saying that there were 40,000 Ku-Klux in Tennessee? Answer. I made that statement. I believed so then, for it was currently reported that there were that number of men. Question. That correction goes to the number; that you believed it was so reported, and that you believed there were 40,000 Ku-Klux in Tennessee. Upon what authority did you make these statements that the organization existed? Answer. I made it upon no authority, nothing of my personal knowledge at that time. Question. Did you in this letter of the 3d of September correct all that you believed required correction in the account of the interview as published in the paper of the 1st of September? Answer. I do not think I did. As I said before, I was very sick at the time and was unable to talk to this man. I did not talk to him five minutes. He said to me, "I will go and write down what you have said and let you see it." He went off, and I did not see anything more of him. Question I find that in your letter of correction you used these words: "The portions of your letter to which I object are corrected in the following paragraphs." Did you not correct all the portions of the letter to which you objected. Was not that the purpose of the letter? Answer. That was the purpose of the letter, yes. That was the intention of it. Question. Where did you obtain your information as to the number of Ku-Klux in Tennessee? You said it was reported and that you believed the report. Answer. I got it from common reports circulated through the country. Question. Can you give us any definite information of any particular person from whom you got that report? Answer. No, sir; I never heard any one say that they knew any particular number of that society; just a report circulated through the country. Question. Was it from the same source that you got the report that there were 550,000 in all the Southern States? Answer. I never made that statement, because I knew nothing about how many there were. Question. I find in the report of that interview another statement, as follows: "But is the organization connected throughout the States?' "'Yes, it is. In each voting precinct there is a captain who, in addition to his other duties, is required to make out a list of names of men in his precinct, giving all the radicals and all the democrats who are positively known, and showing also the doubtful on both sides and of both colors. This list of names is forwarded to the grand commander of the State, who is thus enabled to know who are our friends and who are not."" I do not remember that there is 'in your letter any correction of that statement. Answer. I do not know whether it was corrected in the letter or not. If it was not, I wish to do it here. I made no such statement. I did not have as much conversation with him as you and I now have had. There were gentlemen there who heard what was said. I was suffering very much with a headache at the time, and told him I could not talk to him, that I did not wish to talk to him. He asked me a few questions. Question. Is this statement as reported in the account of that interview a correct statement: "Can you or are you at liberty to give me the name of the commanding officer of this State?' "No; it would be impolitic.' ” Answer. No, sir; I never made that statement. I have received a letter from that reporter, acknowledging that he did misrepresent me. I do not have it here. Afterward, when he wrote another letter stating that he went with me to Fort Pillow, and that I had shown him where the negroes were killed, and how the battle was fought, he went on to make statements of all the facts, which statements were entirely false. I had never traveled with the man ten feet in my life. Question. Is the whole account of this interview a misrepresentation? Answer. Not all of it. I told him that I believed there was an organization in Tennessee, and that it had been reported 40,000 strong. I told him that; I said that. Question. I find these sentences near the close of your letter of correction: "I cannot consent to remain silent in this matter, for, if I did so, under an incorrect impression of my personal views, I might be looked upon as one desiring a conflict, when, in truth, I am so adverse to anything of the kind that I will make any honorable sacrifice to avoid it. "Hoping that I may have this explanation placed before your readers, I remain, very respectfully," &c. I will put the question again: Did you, in this letter, correct all that you deemed a misrepresentation in the account of the interview with you? Answer. I do not think I did, and my friends thought so afterward. But I am not accustomed to writing letters, or to be interrogated by reporters. That was something entirely new to me; I did not expect it. Question. Is this statement in that account correct: "Do you think, General, that the Ku-Klux have been of any benefit to the State?" “No doubt of it. Since its organization, the leagues have quit killing and murdering our people. There were some foolish young men who put masks on their faces and rode over the country, frightening negroes; but orders have been issued to stop that, and it has ceased. You may say, further, that three members of the Ku-Klux have been court-martialed and shot for violations of the orders not to disturb or molest people."" Is that statement correct? Answer. No, sir; not the last part of it. Question. That is, as to the shooting of three members of the Ku-Klux? Answer. No, sir; that is not correct. Question. Is the other portion of it correct? Answer. A portion of it is. Question. That orders had been issued to stop using masks? Answer. I did not say that orders had been issued, but that I understood orders had been issued. I could not speak of anything personally. Question. Well, with your assent, I will put the whole of this account of the interview, and your letter of correction, into the testimony. [See page 32.] I will now ask if, at that time, you had any actual knowledge of the existence of any such order as the Ku-Klux? Answer. I had, from information from others. Question. Will you state who they were who gave you that information? Answer. One or two of the parties are dead now. Question. Who were they? Answer. One of them was a gentleman by the name of Saunders. Question. Did he reside in Tennessee? Answer. No, sir; he resided in Mississippi then. He afterward died by poison at Asheville, North Carolina. Question. Did any other person give you that information? Answer. Yes, sir; I heard others say so, but I do not recollect the names of them now. I say to you, frankly, that I think the organization did exist in 1866 and 1867. Question. In what portions of the country? Answer. I do not think it existed anywhere except in Middle Tennessee. There may have been some in a small portion of West Tennessee; but if there was any, it was very scattering. Question. Under what name is it your belief it existed at that time? Answer. Some called them Pale Faces; some called them Ku-Klux. I believe they were under two names. Question. Had they an officer known as a commander? Answer. I presume they did. Question. Was their organization military in its character? Answer. No, sir; I think not. Question. Were they subject to command and drill in any military form? Answer. They were like the Loyal Leagues, and met occasionally and dispersed again. The Loyal Leagues existed about that time, and I think this was a sort of offset gotten up against the Loyal Leagues. It was in Tennessee at the time; I do not think it was general. Question. Had it a political purpose then? Answer. I think it had not then; it had no political purpose. Question. You say it was organized like the Loyal Leagues, or in opposition to them? Answer. I think it was in opposition. Question. Was the purpose of the Loyal Leagues political? Answer. I do not presume it was; I do not know what it was. Question. What did you understand to be the purpose of the two organizations ? Answer. I can tell you what I think the purpose of the organization that you first spoke of was; I think it was for self-protection. Question. You mean now what is called Ku-Klux? Answer. Yes, sir; I think that organization arose about the time the militia were called out, and Governor Brownlow issued his proclamation stating that the troops would not be injured for what they should do to rebels; such a proclamation was issued. There was a great deal of insecurity felt by the southern people. There were a great many northern men coming down there, forming leagues all over the country. The negroes were holding night meetings; were going about; were becoming very insolent; |